HVAC Design / Build
We’re preparing to renovate a 4 story brownstone in Clinton Hill. Our plan is to istall a Mitsubishi or Daikin split system in the upper triplex. I was very surprised when our architect sent us a proposal for an MEP Engineer to design the heating and cooling systems for $17,500 (including converting the steam system to hydronic). I had originally assumed that the sub contractors doing the systems would just design and build them based on the architects plans and manufacturers specs. I’m sure that there are planty of contractors that have done this exact system in houses identical to ours (20′ wide italianette brownstone) over and over again. Therefor it makes sense to me to just have an experienced contractor duplicate their work, as opposed to an engineer looking at manufacturer specs and putting a system together from scratch. I’ve spoken to a couple of plumbing and heating companies that could do design build for the heating component. Does anyone want to recommend an AC specialist that could design build such a system? Architects/Engineers, does this sound reasonable to you? I have a difficult time believing that every time someone wants to install a split system in their house they go out and hire an engineer to design it for them for this kind of money. Our architects are saying that one reason that we have to use an engineer is because we’re required to file Mechanical Drawings and an Energy Analysis, typically done by an engineer. Is there an easy way that people navigate around this? If the expense is justified I can learn to live with it. I’d like to be frugal, but not stingy. Any advise? Thank you!
rustydevon
in Building Code 13 years and 1 month ago
8
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8 replies
ellenlourie | 13 years and 1 month ago
The beauty of Design/Build http://youtu.be/QMzraqfYKm4
Master Plvmber | 13 years and 1 month ago
I have no problem with engineers designing residential heating systems, especially larger ones, and I install from MEP plans all the time. There are good and less-good engineers around, but there is an expectation or acceptance for overdesigning by these professionals that I could never understand. I often believe that installing contractors have a better concept of what new products are available and how to apply them in the most advantageous way in the field. I consider a good engineer one who can take some advice from an experienced installer without getting defensive, or at least, one who is flexible and responds in a helpful way to the unique conditions of each job and how design or re-design is best applied. I have my own personal mechanical designs in many high-end homes in and around NYC and I sometimes add a design fee to account for about 16 hours (or two work days) of design time both at my desk and on site. I only do this where my company is the contracted installer, so I can keep my design fee low and add the profits of the installation to the total income. I consult for several engineering firms in New York throughout each year and they pay me a minimum $400 evaluation fee every time. Many can appreciate there is a value unique to practical knowledge when trying to solve problems. As was mentioned, it’s true there are some large boilers I can’t file for and sometimes even I have to hire an engineer to produce and submit drawings of my own designs (usually about $2,000). A Master Plumber’s License only takes me so far within the DoB system. I do not overdesign or add a large multiplier to BTU requirements because it takes away from efficiency and adds to installation and operating costs. That’s not what you’re paying for. Later, it’s the installer you’ll be calling if the system doesn’t work right, anyway. The engineer will be somewhat insulated from callbacks, repairs and service.
number419 | 13 years and 1 month ago
FYI, I just looked at a proposal I got a few years ago from one of my engineers for full MEP services (for a larger ground-up building in Brooklyn) and it was 16K total. Definitely ask for other proposals.
number419 | 13 years and 1 month ago
Architect here. 17K definitely seems high for what you describe…I typically see closer to 12-14K for this type of work, but we have no idea what the constraints of the site are or the complexity of the space…or for that matter your specific requirements for the HVAC system, so take all these comments with a grain of salt. Contrary to what gennady and a few others have implied, an MEP engineer is quite helpful to have on your team. In the same way an architect is there to make sure what is installed by the contractor meets your needs & specifications, the MEP engineer does the same. Is this an Alt 1 with a new CofO that will require additional work? Will the engineer be dealing with just the HVAC? What about plumbing and electrical? Will the home have sprinklers also? Security requirements? Fire alarm system? etc? These are all issues that may raise the cost of their services becasue it demands more time and effort, and all this work adds up. Have a frank discussion with your architect about your concern about these costs, and ask them to provide more than one MEP proposal…but don’t expect to get an excellent MEP design package for (nearly) free. Remember, you get what you pay for…
psp215 | 13 years and 1 month ago
Sounds like a rip-off to me. We are in the midst of gut renovation of 4 story townhouse and have had 2 mechanical engineers design complete a/c and heat systems (long, long story — first go round was a disaster by architect). One charged $5,000 for complete set of drawings that were filed. The other is charging $3,000 for same. There is some additional charges for site visits, etc. but shouldn’t be more than $8,000 tops.
brucef | 13 years and 1 month ago
We are facing same situation that you are. We routinely design systems in NJ and supply spec’s to architects. This would be light commercial and residential. I am having trouble paying a large sum to a mech engineer for doing what we routinely do all the time. It would be different if they were supplying some special knowledge or insight. Instead it seems like an elaborate rip-off. It is the eternal book learning versus “hands on” knowledge quandary. We wouldn’t presume to design HVAC for a hospital, but a brownstone isn’t rocket science.
ellenlourie | 13 years and 1 month ago
this is bad idea to hire mechanical engineer to design system. Most of the engineers fail to do proper design. The PE seal exposes them to liability and they prefer cut and paste design, and overdesign, to prevent future litigations. And very few of them know contemporary HVAC methods and technics. You have to look for design/build company with proven track record in reliability and efficiency of systems build. Those companies will hire PE and produce proper plans and applications. And you will have single company responsible for the work, with no fingerpointing in the future.
steam_man | 13 years and 1 month ago
Yes, you will have to file drawings, no matter who designs the system, which a contractor cannot do. As a contractor I prefer to have a design from an engineer which I can bid on, it takes the liability off of me, gives someone else a chance to earn a living and gives the end user an entity that can mediate any disputes. More often than not, we wind up refining the system that the engineer has design in conjunction with the engineer. In any case this is simply the way my company prefers to operate. Undoubtably you will find others who are willing to do the desing from scratch (which we have reluctantly done in the past). No matter what, you should expect to pay for design services whether the contractor includes it in his lump sum or the engineer charges you a fee for that.