Past Illegal Work: Problems with Changing C of O?

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brooklynexpediter

in Brownstoner Renovation 13 years and 9 months ago

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pcvhaiti | 13 years and 9 months ago

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I am considering putting an offer on an non-landmarked brownstone that needs a lot of work and we would be seeking a major renovation, including a C of O change to a 2-Family.  Our suspicion is that work done in the past has been done illegally, including a deck off the back of the house and,most disturbingly, the addition of entire floor (Property Shark shows 2 stories above ground but actually is 2.5-3.0 with a semi-hidden floor).  It may have all been above board, but am skeptical. 

How do we best determine if the work was done legally and properly?  If it wasn’t, what are the potential implications when we apply for a Change in the C of O?  Does anyone have any experience (or hard lessons learned)?

Thanks in advance….

stevecym | 13 years and 9 months ago

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There is a lot going on here and there are some ways to address some of this and some of it may be tougher.  I am not an architect nor am I a GC, but I have gone through some similer issues in a commercial building – regarding work done twenty or more years ago and our own, modern attempt at changing the C of O.  Also, with relation to the deck, I will tell you how my neighbor proceeded when purchasing his house with an illegal deck and how the story unfolded several year later.

As for your question about the C of O, we had unfiled work done in a building I managed some years ago.  The work had been done in the 1970’s and 80’s.  The DOB found the work and changes and realized it had not been filed.  they made us get an engineer/architect and had us draw and file the work before they would change the CO.  We had to go throught he process from start to finish as if we were doing the job all over and have it all signed off on.  Now, in the event that some of your work is very old, say pre modern DOB, say a 100 years old, I have heard a story from a customer that in inspector walked into a house and said “this is not how this was built, you have to put it back the way it was built.”  I cannot see how they can do that with something that was possibly done a hundred years ago and I hope there is some legal recourse.

As for the deck.  Two people I know learned that they were going to contract on a house with an illegal deck.  Both of them did the same thing: in the contract they put a clause stating that the seller would pick up the expenses if they got snagged.  One guy is so far clear and that was 5 yrs ago.  The other man, a neighbor, had the DOB over for something else and they saw the deck.  The made him have it filed by an architect and had him raise the railings; they were too low.    He went to the seller and asked for him to honor the contract.  The seller refused and he took them to court and won.  He got the money for the architect, filing, and modifications.

I fear if an illegal floor has been added, it will become a big issue.  It will have to be drawn and filed and will have to be up to current code, not the code when it was added back whenever, so you may have some issues on top of issues.

I would have an architect look at this before going any further.  There is a guy Jock who comes on here, I would see what he says and call him.

Steve

minard | 13 years and 9 months ago

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It’s Brooklyn, you can safely assume that all work done prior to about 2000 was done without benefit of permits.
The DOB is coming down like a ton of bricks on major renovations. They will require full sprinklering, perimeter as well as roof insulation, all new windows, on and on.  They may even want you to enclose the stair, I have heard nutty stories. Prepare yourself psychologically for a long process. The City is making it harder than ever to comply with the law. Ask any local architect.

m926bk | 13 years and 9 months ago

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To begin, you can find out if this work was permitted by going (online) to the DOB’s Building Information System (BIS).

jparnass | 13 years and 9 months ago

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As the previous posters have said, there are definitely ways to go about legalizing the work, but most of them will require time, patience and money. 

The good news is that since you are planning on doing a major renovation, including a c of o change, it shouldn’t be that big of a deal to fold that into the overall building and filing project.  The additional work will probably not add substantially to your overall budget.

The important thing is to quickly ascertain whether the work conforms to the code and zoning as far as materials, FAR buildable area, lot line windows, setbacks etc are concerned. 

If there are no issues as far as the envelope is concerned, then your worst case scenario might just be rebuilding the deck with a steel structure and 3 feet of metal decking at the lot lines.

I’d be happy to walk through the house with you and give you some feedback and potential options. Jordan Parnass AIA LEED AP http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/jordanparnass

jockdeboeraia | 13 years and 9 months ago

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Legalize before you get nabbed.  The fines will be worse later.  Pray it was done correctly and is not over on the FAR.  There are exiting issues when adding floors depending upon how many floors there are, etc.

pigthree | 13 years and 9 months ago

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slow down.  you can go to the department of building and see what is on file for the building.  there are often mistakes the way a building is classified with the DOB and what it really is, including the number of families the building may be if there is no actual c of o.  

My building is listed and taxed as a two family.  Is actually a legal one.  sold to me as a one. and I set up as a one.  any inspector who challenges me can look at the original blue print I found in the original paper file.  

Point is, if there is no c of o, no proof on file (drawings), you can adjust they way you file your job to your benefit.

Dont follow these fear monger architects on this forum.  There are architects out there who know how to work the system to benefit you and still be legal.