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cobblehiller,
Thanks for responding,
you wrote:
“…frankly, I see you as rather blindered in some respects and having a rather surprisingly narrow world view given your stated experiences.”
I can’t change your perception of my views or that you think they are narrow. I can only offer the facts that I’ve gathered on a given issue and present them with my own interpretation and experience. I leave my words and statements to speak for themselves in other people’s minds. I will say this on this obvious point of contention( the validity of my perspective):
I can point to numerous, specific instances over the years where my positions have proven to be correct or at least the ultimate outcomes have tended in my favor. I’ll cite some specifically because each was an OT battle royale in itself:
-The issue of the “Islamist” at Ground Zero. By any definition of the word Islamist (no matter if you think it’s good or bad) the Imam involved with the Ground Zero mosque is an Islamist. We just didn’t have all the information on his background or writings at the time. Now, looking back, does my statement at the time that he was an Islamist, seem so controversial? Yet, we went on about that one for days.
-The issue of the trial of Khalid Sheik Mohammed in NYC, where I called Attorney General Holder a fool for wanting to hold the trial in NYC. Another battle royale about civilian vs. military trials ensued. Now we find out that the President has “reconsidered” the issue of military tribunals and they will indeed continue at Guantanamo Bay and not NYC.
-Global Warming, yes this one goes a couple of years back. Only a couple of folks were backing me on that one. But since then, there has proven to be a definite re-evaluation of opinion on this issue around the globe.
Cobble, you specifically stated at the time that I was posting to crazy websites and basically had no real basis for my statements.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m no climatalogist, but I knew enough to see the flaws in the data set being pushed on us by politicians while a scientific consensus was far from being certain. Please check out the latest ideas on global warming.
There are more, but time is limited.
On making assumptions about you.
Cobble, I think if you re-read what I posted, I made no assumptions about you.
I never have.
My statements were a response to specific questions related to political dynasties and privilege. So when I said “did you ever live over a crack corner”
I wasn’t challenging your own history but the question about where I felt I had gained a wider “perspective”. You could have responded, yes, I’ve had my share of downs too and I would have simply said,
“then you know what I’m speaking about when I say perspective”.
you posted:
“And to compare your battles in this life due to your place in the world to the Kennedys who’ve lost many lives due to their place in this world, is just plain weird to me. It expresses some bitterness and lack of essential human understanding”
Again, cobble, you are projecting emotional undertones to a larger statement on the rise and fall of American political families and wealth. I don’t compare myself to the Kennedys, I only assert the right to have an equal say in the current dialogue as anyone else, regardless of family names. This is an essential point which you are not getting on my part. Where you are getting the “bitterness” and the “essential lack of human understanding” is not to be found in my words and is more a reflection of your take on my world view. I can only say that I’m quite happy where I am in life.
you wrote:
“— A delightful bit of backpedaling!”
There was no backpeddling needed as I never discounted the Kennedy contribution. I only stated that it was the beauty of our system that natural social selection allowed for new names and ideas to step up to the plate. I think the majority of Americans feel the same way. If they didn’t, the “Kennedy” senatorial seat in Mass. would still be in Democratic hands.
you wrote:
“you present your success as something to be lauded over others in order to discount their statements/experience, over and over. It belies a certain disconnect with/lack of understanding of the human race and everyone else’s battles”
I think this statement is another example of projecting far too much emotional tone to internet chat room disagreements. I think we’d both agree that we don’t know each other personally so why take it to the level of stating that I lack an understanding of the human race?
Isn’t that just a way of dehumanizing someone you disagree with in order to make yourself feel better?
Isn’t that sort of assumption exactly what you were upset about in the first place? Please post where I’ve ever discounted another person’s experiences based on my “success”.
The idea that because someone believes strongly in one point of view and might even base those ideas on personal experience, they automatically diminish the other person, is an easy out. So in effect, if someone disagrees with another person’s conclusions, they lack the ability to empathize.
Cobble, this statement is nothing more than an attempt to censor debate. I think that if you asked the OT regulars if they really agree that myself or benson (who you accuse of this as well)are “lacking in human understanding” and are “disconnected”, they would disagree with you.
Do you read any of my attempts at jokes in the OT?
Alrighty then,
back to doing my taxes. :o(
…and applying for my writer’s union card. with the amount of writing I’ve done after hours, I think I deserve it!
posted by bxgrl
“…but being bombastic and hyperbolic will only get you like in response. If that’s not who you really are, why do it? Slopey is never bombastic and hyperbolic yet when he posts it rivets our attention. He makes his points without trying to draw blood with every sentence.”
Hello again,
I hope everyone has been enjoying their weekend and thanks
to everyone for responding.
At this point, this disagreement interests me even more than before because it seems that I’ve struck at some nerve with bxgrl and cobblehiller, though that wouldn’t be the first time. I’m trying to figure out what exactly,is at the base of this and I’ve come to some conclusions.
First, let me respond to some of the statements though.
Yes, bxgrl, slopefarm is great to read and always makes excellent points but slopefarm is not legion and legion is not slopefarm. What a boring world it would be if we all posted in the same manner. Imagine if everyone started to post like me or like dibs or like *rob* or ET. Variety is the spice of life as they say, so I think I’ll continue posting in my provocative style just the same. I think that’s the point *rob* is constantly making to people all day long who follow him from thread to thread in an attempt to browbeat him into conformity.
As far as questioning someone’s patriotism. I recall that disagreement we had and it wasn’t about your patriotism but about ideas that certain groups in this country have which are at odds with the foundation principles of this republic. Groups that take it a step further than words and into actions that put people in danger. We can continue to hash out our differences on those issues on another day. Suffice it to say that I know you and your family have contributed to this country and I’ve never questioned you or your family personally, nor do you need me to acknowledge that just the same.
posted by bxgrl,
“What you shouldn’t do is assume no one else has worked as hard, or gone through less than you, or that your life experiences allow only you to render your opinion on certain issues”
When did I assume no one else has worked as hard or had to struggle? Once and for all, I know that just getting by is usually a struggle in itself. I stated my own experiences only in response to questions on my qualifications to speak on issues like:
poverty
politics
health
economics
etc.
For some reason, when I make an argument and have real life experience to back up my conclusions with, I get accused of “lauding it over” other people. Now you see what I mean by a “presumptuous fallacy of logic”? Both you and cobblehiller challenge me on my statements, then are surprised to find out that I not only have factual data to back up my conclusions but personal experiences as well. In my book, it is presumptuous to go after me personally for proving my case when I’m asked exactly for personal qualifications on a given issue. The fallacy of logic part is where the cause and effect conclusions I then present are discounted out of hand by attacks on my character and nature.
Lastly bxgrl,I realize your unique perspective and the generosity of spirit that informs your world view. I understand we will continue to agree to disagree on given topics and I wouldn’t ask you to change.
Except perhaps during next years election. ;o)
I just returned from sitting shiva (sp?) for my wife’s childhood girlfriend’s father. My wife’s girlfriend and her husband are remarkable people in a number of ways. First, they belong to a Bensonhurst-based community of French-speaking Jews that have their origins in Morocco and Egypt and do all they can to maintain their ancestral customs, including the language. Even though my wife’s girlfriend was born here in Brooklyn, she speaks with a French accent, as that is what she spoke at home. My wife knew her from their public school, and she married a guy who grew up on my wife’s block, also from that community and also my wife’s friend.
The really remarkable thing about this couple, however, is what happened to them after they married (at about the same time that my wife and I got married). She had a miscarraige and was not able to have children of her own after that. They adopted a girl from down South, and after a couple of years it became obvious that she was autistic. Several years later, wanting another child, they adopted a child from Ukraine, and it turns out that the agency they used was not reputable. They wound up with a girl who was almost feral, and had developmental issues (it’s still not clear how permanent the damage is).
The amazing thing about them is that they love both of these children as if they were their own, and they never exhibit the slighest trace of bitterness about the hand they were dealt with. After visiting them, I always realize that I am blessed, and hope that one day I will have the grace to handle life’s inevitable hardships as they do.
Question to the Jewish folks out there: what is the significance of covering all the mirrors in the house during shiva?
cobblehiller,
Thanks for responding,
you wrote:
“…frankly, I see you as rather blindered in some respects and having a rather surprisingly narrow world view given your stated experiences.”
I can’t change your perception of my views or that you think they are narrow. I can only offer the facts that I’ve gathered on a given issue and present them with my own interpretation and experience. I leave my words and statements to speak for themselves in other people’s minds. I will say this on this obvious point of contention( the validity of my perspective):
I can point to numerous, specific instances over the years where my positions have proven to be correct or at least the ultimate outcomes have tended in my favor. I’ll cite some specifically because each was an OT battle royale in itself:
-The issue of the “Islamist” at Ground Zero. By any definition of the word Islamist (no matter if you think it’s good or bad) the Imam involved with the Ground Zero mosque is an Islamist. We just didn’t have all the information on his background or writings at the time. Now, looking back, does my statement at the time that he was an Islamist, seem so controversial? Yet, we went on about that one for days.
-The issue of the trial of Khalid Sheik Mohammed in NYC, where I called Attorney General Holder a fool for wanting to hold the trial in NYC. Another battle royale about civilian vs. military trials ensued. Now we find out that the President has “reconsidered” the issue of military tribunals and they will indeed continue at Guantanamo Bay and not NYC.
-Global Warming, yes this one goes a couple of years back. Only a couple of folks were backing me on that one. But since then, there has proven to be a definite re-evaluation of opinion on this issue around the globe.
Cobble, you specifically stated at the time that I was posting to crazy websites and basically had no real basis for my statements.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m no climatalogist, but I knew enough to see the flaws in the data set being pushed on us by politicians while a scientific consensus was far from being certain. Please check out the latest ideas on global warming.
There are more, but time is limited.
On making assumptions about you.
Cobble, I think if you re-read what I posted, I made no assumptions about you.
I never have.
My statements were a response to specific questions related to political dynasties and privilege. So when I said “did you ever live over a crack corner”
I wasn’t challenging your own history but the question about where I felt I had gained a wider “perspective”. You could have responded, yes, I’ve had my share of downs too and I would have simply said,
“then you know what I’m speaking about when I say perspective”.
you posted:
“And to compare your battles in this life due to your place in the world to the Kennedys who’ve lost many lives due to their place in this world, is just plain weird to me. It expresses some bitterness and lack of essential human understanding”
Again, cobble, you are projecting emotional undertones to a larger statement on the rise and fall of American political families and wealth. I don’t compare myself to the Kennedys, I only assert the right to have an equal say in the current dialogue as anyone else, regardless of family names. This is an essential point which you are not getting on my part. Where you are getting the “bitterness” and the “essential lack of human understanding” is not to be found in my words and is more a reflection of your take on my world view. I can only say that I’m quite happy where I am in life.
you wrote:
“— A delightful bit of backpedaling!”
There was no backpeddling needed as I never discounted the Kennedy contribution. I only stated that it was the beauty of our system that natural social selection allowed for new names and ideas to step up to the plate. I think the majority of Americans feel the same way. If they didn’t, the “Kennedy” senatorial seat in Mass. would still be in Democratic hands.
you wrote:
“you present your success as something to be lauded over others in order to discount their statements/experience, over and over. It belies a certain disconnect with/lack of understanding of the human race and everyone else’s battles”
I think this statement is another example of projecting far too much emotional tone to internet chat room disagreements. I think we’d both agree that we don’t know each other personally so why take it to the level of stating that I lack an understanding of the human race?
Isn’t that just a way of dehumanizing someone you disagree with in order to make yourself feel better?
Isn’t that sort of assumption exactly what you were upset about in the first place? Please post where I’ve ever discounted another person’s experiences based on my “success”.
The idea that because someone believes strongly in one point of view and might even base those ideas on personal experience, they automatically diminish the other person, is an easy out. So in effect, if someone disagrees with another person’s conclusions, they lack the ability to empathize.
Cobble, this statement is nothing more than an attempt to censor debate. I think that if you asked the OT regulars if they really agree that myself or benson (who you accuse of this as well)are “lacking in human understanding” and are “disconnected”, they would disagree with you.
Do you read any of my attempts at jokes in the OT?
Alrighty then,
back to doing my taxes. :o(
…and applying for my writer’s union card. with the amount of writing I’ve done after hours, I think I deserve it!
posted by bxgrl
“…but being bombastic and hyperbolic will only get you like in response. If that’s not who you really are, why do it? Slopey is never bombastic and hyperbolic yet when he posts it rivets our attention. He makes his points without trying to draw blood with every sentence.”
Hello again,
I hope everyone has been enjoying their weekend and thanks
to everyone for responding.
At this point, this disagreement interests me even more than before because it seems that I’ve struck at some nerve with bxgrl and cobblehiller, though that wouldn’t be the first time. I’m trying to figure out what exactly,is at the base of this and I’ve come to some conclusions.
First, let me respond to some of the statements though.
Yes, bxgrl, slopefarm is great to read and always makes excellent points but slopefarm is not legion and legion is not slopefarm. What a boring world it would be if we all posted in the same manner. Imagine if everyone started to post like me or like dibs or like *rob* or ET. Variety is the spice of life as they say, so I think I’ll continue posting in my provocative style just the same. I think that’s the point *rob* is constantly making to people all day long who follow him from thread to thread in an attempt to browbeat him into conformity.
As far as questioning someone’s patriotism. I recall that disagreement we had and it wasn’t about your patriotism but about ideas that certain groups in this country have which are at odds with the foundation principles of this republic. Groups that take it a step further than words and into actions that put people in danger. We can continue to hash out our differences on those issues on another day. Suffice it to say that I know you and your family have contributed to this country and I’ve never questioned you or your family personally, nor do you need me to acknowledge that just the same.
posted by bxgrl,
“What you shouldn’t do is assume no one else has worked as hard, or gone through less than you, or that your life experiences allow only you to render your opinion on certain issues”
When did I assume no one else has worked as hard or had to struggle? Once and for all, I know that just getting by is usually a struggle in itself. I stated my own experiences only in response to questions on my qualifications to speak on issues like:
poverty
politics
health
economics
etc.
For some reason, when I make an argument and have real life experience to back up my conclusions with, I get accused of “lauding it over” other people. Now you see what I mean by a “presumptuous fallacy of logic”? Both you and cobblehiller challenge me on my statements, then are surprised to find out that I not only have factual data to back up my conclusions but personal experiences as well. In my book, it is presumptuous to go after me personally for proving my case when I’m asked exactly for personal qualifications on a given issue. The fallacy of logic part is where the cause and effect conclusions I then present are discounted out of hand by attacks on my character and nature.
Lastly bxgrl,I realize your unique perspective and the generosity of spirit that informs your world view. I understand we will continue to agree to disagree on given topics and I wouldn’t ask you to change.
Except perhaps during next years election. ;o)
I just returned from sitting shiva (sp?) for my wife’s childhood girlfriend’s father. My wife’s girlfriend and her husband are remarkable people in a number of ways. First, they belong to a Bensonhurst-based community of French-speaking Jews that have their origins in Morocco and Egypt and do all they can to maintain their ancestral customs, including the language. Even though my wife’s girlfriend was born here in Brooklyn, she speaks with a French accent, as that is what she spoke at home. My wife knew her from their public school, and she married a guy who grew up on my wife’s block, also from that community and also my wife’s friend.
The really remarkable thing about this couple, however, is what happened to them after they married (at about the same time that my wife and I got married). She had a miscarraige and was not able to have children of her own after that. They adopted a girl from down South, and after a couple of years it became obvious that she was autistic. Several years later, wanting another child, they adopted a child from Ukraine, and it turns out that the agency they used was not reputable. They wound up with a girl who was almost feral, and had developmental issues (it’s still not clear how permanent the damage is).
The amazing thing about them is that they love both of these children as if they were their own, and they never exhibit the slighest trace of bitterness about the hand they were dealt with. After visiting them, I always realize that I am blessed, and hope that one day I will have the grace to handle life’s inevitable hardships as they do.
Question to the Jewish folks out there: what is the significance of covering all the mirrors in the house during shiva?
damn Bxgrl
Yeah- “most.” Not all- if you catch my drift.
quote:
Most of us are very intelligent, educated people
lol
*rob*
quote:
Most of us are very intelligent, educated people
lol
*rob*
quote:
Most of us are very intelligent, educated people
lol
*rob*
quote:
Most of us are very intelligent, educated people
lol
*rob*