Turrets Galore
One of the first things that strikes you as you encounter the woodframe houses and front lawns of the Northern-most portion of Victorian Flatbush (which Mary Kay calls Caton Park and Prospect Park South-Albemarle) are the turrets on the corners of many of the houses. We thought these two examples, at 101 Rugby Road and…
One of the first things that strikes you as you encounter the woodframe houses and front lawns of the Northern-most portion of Victorian Flatbush (which Mary Kay calls Caton Park and Prospect Park South-Albemarle) are the turrets on the corners of many of the houses. We thought these two examples, at 101 Rugby Road and 1314 Albemarle Road were particularly noteworthy.
this is so silly…..
Here are 3 reliable and authoritative sources that refer to, map or describe Ditmas Park. None of these sources make a usable reference to “Victorian Flatbush.”
OASIS: “(C)reate(s) a one-stop, interactive mapping and data analysis application…create maps of open space by zip code, borough, tax block and lot, and/or neighborhood;” Allows user to display maps by neighborhood. Ditmas Park is an option, “Victorian Flatbush” is not on the list.
http://www.oasisnyc.net/mapsearch.asp
New York City Department of Planning, New York: A City of Neighborhoods: Provides a neighborhood list and maps among which Ditmas Park is one. “Victorian Flatbush” is not on the list.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/neighbor/neigh.shtml
New York Times Real Estate Section: Property search feature in Brooklyn allows search of Ditmas Park/Windsor Terrace/Kensington. Flatbush/Midwood listed separately. “Victorian Flatbush” not on the list. Community Data and Profiles Section lists neighborhoods including Ditmas Park. “Victorian Flatbush” is not on the list.
2003 NYT Article sums up. “DIVIDED by the tracks of the Q train, the 27 square blocks of Ditmas Park and Ditmas Park West are bordered by Cortelyou Road to the north, Newkirk Avenue to the south, East 19th Street to the east and Coney Island Avenue to the west.”
Neighborhoods in Brooklyn are not incorporated or considered census places. They exist solely by convention. My argument, which is well documented, is that the current and modern convention is to refer to this neighborhood as Ditmas Park. You have offered nothing to refute this claim except to cite the historical inaccuracy and a perceived imprecision of the nomenclature. This argument is evasive and borders on tautological. Your scholarly mind simply seems to find this convention unsatisfying, but that comes with the territory when understanding Brooklyn neighborhoods, your rage notwithstanding.
And I am not trying to “rename” the neighborhood. I am supporting a campaign to give the neighborhood an historically accurate designation which relfects the fact that it is in fact part of Flatbush.
You may have grown up calling the entire area Ditmas Park, but that doesn’t mean that’s what it actually is. Yes, I am boiling mad. I just wish you would provide accurate grounds for your arguments (which I have requested repeatedly – who knows, maybe you could sway me or actually prove me wrong), but you keep refusing to do this and instead keep reiterating the same tired statment, It’s Ditmas Park because that’s what I’ve always called it…. Engage in the debate with actual concrete fact or don’t bother!!!!
I am siding with renaming the neighborhood because Ditmas Park is inaccurate. Period. You refuse to explain your position (what are all these references on your side – I’m dying to know, but you refuse to elucidate). This whole dialogue with you is tedious. You may be Brooklyn Born, but you don’t have any understanding of architecural history. Which, frankly, I do, and I have the doctorate to prove it.
I have stated repeatedly that I would be happy to refer to the neighborhood as Flatbush, which is what it is, technically, historically, culturally, municipally, etc… And if you want to refute, it provide a few footnotes, please.
Flatbush extends from Caton Ave. on the north to Avenue H on the south and from Coney Island Avenue on the west to Flatbush Avenue on the east. It’s pretty well defigned. Ditmas Park is a neighborhood inside Flatbush and should not be used as a substitute. “Victorian Flatbush” is more than a real estate coinage and is used by many residents of the area as a means of self description, but it IS an attempt to rename the area, and it’s thrust is at least in part an attempt to separate the community up into its socioeconomic parts. The haves get to live in “Victorian Flatbush” and the rest live in “Flatbush.” Despite the square footage of my home, I prefer to think that I live in Flatbush. And I really don’t live in Ditmas Park no matter how you try to stretch it.
Look.
You’ve just admitted that you are trying to rename the neighborhood. I think your stated rationales are flimsy and I have cultural norms, historical record, current usage, municipal references, media references and marketing references on my side. Let’s just live with Ditmas Park as the most convenient and accepted name for this area and stop the confusing renaming campaign.
Bbborn – your definition of Ditmas Park is pretty much the same as my definition of Victorian Flatbush,so I am not trying to suggest that other neighborhoods (except perhaps South Midwood, which is Flatbush) should be just tacked on to it. However, there is the fact that the “real” Ditmas Park is only 2 x 5 blocks of this vast tract. How do you distinguish between the real Ditmas Park (which is of its own unique architectural importance) and the larger area which is erroneously although popularly known as Ditmas Park? I live in Beverley Square West, not part of the strict, landmarked boundries of Ditmas Park, yet according to you I live in a section of Brooklyn known as Ditmas Park. It’s very confusing, and there are more than a few DP residents who don’t like the fact that the name of their (special)residential section is applied across the board to neighborhoods with a slightly different architectural aesthetic. The problem with the area I’m calling Victorian Flatbush is that it seems people just haven’t figured out what it actually is over the years, and there has been a desire/need to distinguish it from other sections of Flatbush (which is quite large) and have an extremely different residential feel. I just happen to think Victorian Flatbush or even West Flatbush is the most accurate term.
That isn’t technically true. You are in South Midwood, which is still part of Flatbush, I’m afraid.
I’ll go with George Soros and refer you to
http://www.oasisnyc.net
oasis has a slightly more expansive view than I would take, but I’ll go with Foster, Coney Island, Albermarle, Ocean Ave.
I think the core is Newkirk, CI, Beverly, E. 16th, but that’s me.
I’ve never really known what to do with the Pospect Park South/Parade Grounds area, but I do not consider it part of Ditmas Park. Once you’re at Midwood High school/Brooklyn College you are squarely in Midwood.
We all know the epicenter is Famous Pita.