Professional Window Installation - total rip off?!

Try,
Western, arcadia, quaker, or grahm, to name a few of the better all Aluminum brands.

lynnepoling

in Doors & Windows 5 years and 8 months ago

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encarnacionroger | 5 years and 9 months ago

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Hi all, we need to replace all 11 windows in our apartment and we’re getting outrageous quotes from window installation companies ($1000-$1500 per window). We’ve asked for the windows that face the street to be 1/4 over 1/4 laminate glass for noise reduction, so that definitely increases the price, but are made-to-order/professionally installed windows really THAT different from the ones that you can order to spec from home depot or another big box store and then have installed by a contractor?

It seems like these window companies are just middle men – they don’t manufacture the windows, they just order and install them. Has anyone had experience buying directly from the manufacturer?

Would love any recommendations for companies that aren’t charging an arm and a leg! Thank you!

randolph | 5 years and 9 months ago

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> @sarahjosette
> are made-to-order/professionally installed windows really THAT different from the ones that you can order to spec from home depot or another big box store and then have installed by a contractor?

yes.

stevecym | 5 years and 9 months ago

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the ones people want in their homes in Brooklyn are different. you want wood frames and traditional quality. i am not sure how to get those windows, though if i were to install some i am sure i could find out (i am not marketing myself here as i have no interest in installing windows). keep in mind, pricey, quality windows require a lot of responsibility in handling; the contractor is on the hook and he or she gets paid to accept that responsibility and the responsibility for the measurements. window contractors may have additional costs over and above others as insurance may be a bit more as they climb up on ladders (even if your windows can be done from the inside, the contractor’s operational expenses will be based on being someone who climbs outside).

that said, if you are looking for cheap windows like they sell at home depot, you can order them from window places that seem to exist in places like flushing queens. when i did the windows in my own house i went through a contractor friend who got them at wholesale and installed them on a day rate. sure , i saved a lot of money. But at 5 PM he was also done and i got stuck with the clean up and any warranty claims (none 13 years later) and any adjustments (again none; this is what he did for a living); it does not always work this way.

you can try to do it the way i did, find somebody. keep in mind, unless you know someone as i do, you will probably not be hiring a window contractor to do the windows; you will be hiring a generalist. installing these and making sure they work correctly takes some skill (at least to get it done right the first time). who is on the hook if he damages an expensive window? will he be if you are paying him per unit or by the hour to install? if he is not a window contractor per se, will his handling these void a warranty? how long do you want him in your house trying figure out how to do something he has not really done before or he has done one or two of here and there as he did a bathroom or kitchen reno? window contractors are window contractors because that is what they do (and you are correct, there is markup here). contractors do a lot of things and may know nothing about windows; you may be his guinea pig. you might get lucky or you might get a bunch of headaches in six months.

Even with a good contractor, things can go wrong. he could drop something that he had handled every day for ten years with no problem and that day it happens on your job. he could have an auto accident with your windows in his van. he could have a family issue or his number one helper’s mother-in-law dies and he has to travel to East Bunny Hole Nebraska for a week. my point is, even on a good day, things happen. taking chances with people who are not experienced in that trade only increases the chances that something can go wrong. maybe, maybe not.

Consider some of the other stories on here before hiring a generalist for windows.

stevecym | 5 years and 9 months ago

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also, i just saw something that is key here. you mentioned that this is an apartment. that probably means that the building has requirements on certain things that not only include the window style (am i correct in assuming these are not cheap vinyl windows?), insurance and workers comp. these things force the contractor to be a professional and these mean his expenses are more. that may be why the prices appear out of line with other things.

resident2 | 5 years and 9 months ago

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What kind of Co-Op do you own in that would allow individual owners to create such an eyesore of patchwork quilt windows?

cate | 5 years and 9 months ago

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Are you in Brooklyn? Are you landmarked? In my experience, typical aluminum windows run approx $500 each including installation and wood/aluminum Marvins are around $1200. Extra tall floor to ceiling windows as on an Italianate parlor floor will be more.

stevecym | 5 years and 9 months ago

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now that cate mentioned aluminum, crystal windows in flushing seems to make a good product. I ordered some for a customer a few years back and for a long time people were getting rid of aluminum windows because they transmit heat. but they now have “thermal breaks”. the bronzetone is nice. I have a house and if budget were less of an issue, I would go with the marvins.

RobertGMarvin

in Doors & Windows 5 years and 9 months ago

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stevecym,
FWIW the aluminum Marjo windows I had installed >40 years ago have thermal breaks.

stevecym | 5 years and 9 months ago

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bobmarvin: then they were good windows back then. leaders in the industry. I mentioned that because as late as the 1990’s crystal was still using the thermal break as a selling point.

cate | 5 years and 9 months ago

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We have Champion aluminum in bronze color with thermal breaks and they’ve been just fine. Of course Marvins with their thinner muntins and installed in the original pockets would be dreamy — the original windows would be even better.

2345bcde | 5 years and 8 months ago

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Trimline make great windows. They are approved by the landmarks folks too. They’re wood on the inside and clad with aluminum and are much cheaper then Marvin’s. Marvin windows are made entirely of wood and really look bad within a few years. I recently got a quote for 11 marvin windows installed from heights woodworking for $36,000 and $27,000 from bay ridge window and door. I paid $9,000 forTrimline windows and installed them myself. The windows I’m describing are a much higher quality window them aluminum replacement windows and cost more.

jserpico | 5 years and 8 months ago

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We quoted multiple windows companies for one 10 * 8 patio door, 4 large casements, 8 double hung, all came back in the >30k range. We also went to Crystal windows’ showroom in flushing, hoping that we could get the same quality but spend less. Nope, the windows looked very low-end and of poor quality. At the end we ordered Pella Architecture Series from Lowes. The quoted price from the guy sent by Pella directly doubled Lowes price and he said if I made the purchase within 24 hours, he could give me additional $2000 discount. Seemed fishy and left me thinking how big their margins are.

encarnacionroger | 5 years and 8 months ago

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Thanks all. @cate @stevecym @Bob Marvin @rwinbrooklyn – every company that I’ve talked to either offers Crystal (mostly 2000 series) or something that they self-manufacture which they compare to Crystal. Is Marvin much better?

2345bcde | 5 years and 8 months ago

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You should really check out the Trimline eclipse series they are better and cheaper then Marvin windows. I’ve used Trimline windows on multiple jobs and in my own house. Do yourself a favor and look them up.

greenworks | 5 years and 8 months ago

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Yes Marvin really is that much better than Crystal.

Yes Marvin does make an aluminum clad wood window, we have them (Marvin Ultimate Next Generations) and they look and operate fabulously years after install (they open and close so nicely that we still occasionally just open and close them just because it is so nice lolol – call us basic, I know).

I will admit, I never got the “cult of Marvin” mentality and even ridiculed it until we dealt with the company then installed them. I went into this with a bias against Marvin and more into Kolbe, Loewen etc. But as I dug, then corresponded with Marvin, I found they truly care about customer service and make an excellent product. Even after point of sale.

When we were looking to replace our windows we reread every single one of the 3,450 Brownstoner forum posts on this topic from the dawn of time (they’re all in the archives, I suggest you look). We considered every brand mentioned and even tho Marvins broke our bank and we had to install in waves, they still represented a great value for the money. If we thought there was a better value out there that was more expensive we would have done that brand instead, despite the cost difference. If there was something cheaper out there that met our specs we certainly would have done that as well.

If you’re not picky about how much plastic appears on your “wood interior” windows you can check out some of the higher end Andersen “wood” clad windows that have very visible plastic jamb liners. The heavy use of plastic on the “wood” interior annoyed the crap out of me but doesn’t even register for other people.

We rejected Pella out of hand bc everyone we knew who installed them had major issues.

I’m sure Trimline is great but for us, the fact that Marvin was so well known and distributed made the difference for us. We had extreme decision fatigue after years of renos and just wanted to hit the easy button.

stevecym | 5 years and 8 months ago

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i originally came on here to try to tell you what you should not do. the cheap crap put in by someone who does not do windows. i consider crystal to be at the top of the cheap stuff. i know nothing about marvin but if i were doing my house and money permitted, i would pay attention to the folks who suggest marvin is a better window; products like that can not survive at the prices they command unless they are much better. (this is true in all sorts of cases across industries and products. people who buy a lot of product know that)

encarnacionroger | 5 years and 8 months ago

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Thanks @booisgolden @stevecym.
The 10 window replacement companies we contacted appeared decent (they have good reviews on yelp, etc.) but none of them sell Marvin, Pella, Anderson or any of the other more reputable brands. I guess we’ll reach out to these manufacturers directly for certified dealers who can install them. I assume it’s the same deal though, right – we’re likely to get a range of prices despite them being for the exact same product, in the exact same NYC area?
Do you have any recommendations on a particular dealer?

slopefarm | 5 years and 8 months ago

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We went cheap on windows. Don’t go cheap on windows. Probably our biggest regret.

dorkofwindsor | 5 years and 8 months ago

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I have Crystal – older ones and newer ones – purchased by the previous owner. Borderline Junk IMHO. I’d ditch that window installer who benchmarks to Crystal.