Lack of filing on a potential townhouse purchase in BK

Sure, if someone installs Knob-and-tube wiring!!!!

daveinbedstuy

in Home Buying 7 years and 9 months ago

7

Please log in, in order to post replies!

7 replies

Newest Oldest

gittar

in Home Buying 7 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "2"
object(WP_User)#4902 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4905 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189390"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(6) "gittar"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BDHk4G0AoHeMZqILM.64JAIncIBXVk/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(6) "gittar"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "g.robinson@rgarch.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2024-02-22 16:45:17"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(29) "Gitta Robinson Gitta Robinson"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(189390)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Hi Brownstoner community – Question for you all. My wife and I are looking at townhouse in Brooklyn, and are on the verge of signing the contract. However, our lawyer flagged that no permits were ever filed on the renovations done in the house over the last 20 years. It’s in a historic district, yet there were no DOB permits or landmark approvals. We’ve already had it inspected, to which we found nothing of concern or that appeared like shotty/careless work not up to code. However, now we are worried that if purchase the property, and move to file for the renovations we want to do, it could all go south. Unfortunately, in the neighborhood we are looking in, we’ve heard from many residents and sellers that very few people followed the rules when renovating. Anyone had an experience like this? How did it go? Any words of wisdom? I don’t think the seller will people to retroactively produce any paperwork/filings, or get their lawyer to indemnify us from any liabilities.

EJR | 7 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4892 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4866 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "79362"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(3) "EJR"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B.h6vu7ImM77fV6j0TvRwlieo3mAr4/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(3) "ejr"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "ejrothman@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(46) "http://bstoner.wpengine.com/forums/users/ejr2/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:30:58"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(3) "EJR"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(79362)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

There are a lot of threads on this issue if you search the archive. You would be hard pressed to find any house in Brooklyn that had a perfect permit history. The DOB is a PIA and no one wants to deal with them. Unpermitted work is commonplace. If you are happy with the property and the inspection and your bank will lend, then move forward. If you find a unicorn with proper permitting history, please share with the forum, it’s probably worth a full Brownstoner story for being so unique.

empathie00 | 7 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4867 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4865 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "177582"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "empathie00"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B39XlbF3Z/GXxRzNgW/yrLZdITT1/R."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "empathie00"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "empatrick@hotmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(25) "/forums/users/empathie00/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:17:48"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(10) "empathie00"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(177582)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Agree with EJR for the most part but just be aware that if you buy it and want to do permitted, Alt1 renos down the road, the unpermitted previous renos WILL become your problem as you’ll have to bring the whole house up to current code (the codes change ALL the time so even if something was done to code – permitted or not – 10 years ago, it doesnt mean it’s up to current code). Depends what and how the previous work was done, but it could end up costing you a ton of $$ to basically retrofit someone else’s work. If you don’t plan to do any major renos and plan to stay long enough in the house that you’re not concerned about what future buyers will do when confronted with the unpermitted renos, then – go for it! 🙂 Good luck.

Lurker | 7 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4902 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4862 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "113126"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(6) "Lurker"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$Biam83uc193o8.v5qK1VChb9yjJ5vu."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(6) "lurker"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(22) "jcjedi_10003@yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(21) "/forums/users/lurker/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2011-01-19 18:44:20"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(6) "Lurker"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(113126)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

EJR has a point but you might consider paying an architect who knows the code in that area, or a higher-end GC who you can basically ask to vet to see what obvious potential code violoations you might be on the hook for. Windows and weird additions or things are obvious ones that landmarks might flag. Or obvious systems issues with plumbing and boiler work., or the need to install sprinklers. Or missing walls where there should be a load-bearing beam—if the layout is different than what is traditional, or if it’s configuration as a multi or two family is differen than the neighbors. Anything hidden in the wall is a gamble but at the very least getting someone besides an inspector who knows code and what the building “should” be like might go a long way to giving you confidence in teh purchase or walking away.

EJR | 7 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4892 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4864 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "79362"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(3) "EJR"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B.h6vu7ImM77fV6j0TvRwlieo3mAr4/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(3) "ejr"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "ejrothman@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(46) "http://bstoner.wpengine.com/forums/users/ejr2/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:30:58"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(3) "EJR"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(79362)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

As empathie00 noted, code changes all the time, so if you do an Alt1 it’s going to a huge hassle regardless. I am certainly not advocating cutting corners or going into a deal with a blind eye, but if you’re concerned about the permitting issue and not willing to take a risk, then I don’t think a historic house is the right choice for you; new construction might be a better bet. Old houses will have problems. It’s part of their charm and every single old house will have issue, probably some major, unless you are buying a gut renovated property from a reputable developer.

daveinbedstuy | 7 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4867 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4885 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(4) "3864"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "daveinbedstuy"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BtJYyObAQmff2MQp.qFP7/kmwU1bBZ1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "daveinbedstuy"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "djl135e54@yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(55) "http://bstoner.wpengine.com/forums/users/daveinbedstuy/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:23:53"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(13) "daveinbedstuy"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(3864)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

First, be thankful it passed the inspections so well. That rarely happens. None of this will matter and won’t be an issue when you sell all other things being equal. What type of renovations do you plan? Some may not even require permits. And others you may slide under the radar given what you said about the “neighborhood.” When I bought mine it was reovated to code (except it used PVC drain th eyear before that passed as code) and I was able to do more with permits but I made sure it was all done to code. Gray lines and fine lines!!

Arkady | 7 years and 9 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4864 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4902 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "14677"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(6) "Arkady"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BSLpIhH1FLNbV2Qdpb/F67tu7brrgw1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(6) "Arkady"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(20) "rkdillon@verizon.net"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(21) "/forums/users/arkady/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2008-08-04 21:50:38"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(20) "HL9P1Plx6tnm1l8GiJvd"
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(6) "Arkady"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(14677)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Just asking, but would it be possible to claim the changes were made before permits were required?