ductless split: what makes it expensive?
I have been quoted about 9k per floor on a ductless split system. Too much for me at this point.
The house is gutted and I am wondering what I can do to take advantage of the fact that the walls are open now.
Does it make sense to put the electric lines in, and the refrigerant lines and purchase units later? The alternative are sleeve units under the window.
I need to provide info to my mechanical engineer.
What did you do? Any practical tips are appreciated.
Augustiner
in Plumbers and Plumbing 12 years and 10 months ago
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brucef | 12 years and 10 months ago
Assuming you have lower (3) floors and rentals are top two floors, I like conventional (ducted)for the owner’s home, but two medium size mini-splits for the rentals. I can tell you that in NJ there is no “closed lead” sytem for Mitsubishi. We have switched over a little bit to Fujitsu. I don’t know the size of your rentals, but we have had success with 27K condensers with a centrally located 18k evaporator and a 9 or 12K in the “master bedroom”. Parts prices for two evaporators, condense, wall mpunt bracket and line sets should be $ 3500\. With the walls open plan on a condensate home run down from the central location 18’s (don’t forget, they don’t have to be on exterior walls) The condensate drain is critical. I don’t know how to stress that enough. No pumps, no pans, just gravity.
slopemope | 12 years and 10 months ago
the cost of the equipment is high because each zone / room has its own hunking piece of equipment that is usually shipped from japan or korea. maybe just 1/3 to 1/2 the job cost. but also, if it is mitsubishi they bid high and (i have come to suspect) that they have your name in a system and no other mitsubishi installers will bid on the job. i don’t know this for a fact, only my experience, but i am quite adamant about this. things also to consider in an old house which is in the process of being gutted is fresh air. You have an opportunity to actually filter fresh air into your house – most do not. and archtecturally plan for it. Normally you rely on a leaky inefficient 100 year old house to leak new air inside without retrofitting an air handler. If you have no outside sources of fresh air you can’t insulate your house (greater heating bills, more “cold zones” etc). Combining air exchangers and a ducted hvac system you can actually have good conditioned air to breathe as one might expect anywhere else in a first world country, combined with an energy efficient house. If you don’t like to open your windows (noise, privacy, closeby traffic / smog) and like controlled, conditioned spaces, i would seriously consider this. If you love open windows all year round and will hire a weekly maid for the forseen future – maybe its not as critical. i think the ducted owners unit is a fantastic idea with sleeves for renters in the rear, but i hate window AC’s in the front of the house leaking and depositing rust spots all over the place.
Augustiner | 12 years and 10 months ago
Thanks for the input.
The reason why I made this post is exactly that …. Nobody really has the oversight.
ME asks for brands that the contractor wants to install, the contractor needs to know the system to propose brands.
It is a five story house with an owner´s unit and 2 rentals.
I heard ducted for rentals can be tricky, because renters might not happy to pay a premium for A/C if they “don´t use it at all”.
I was also considering:
– ducted for owners unit
– window sleeves for rentals just to keep costs down
I wish I could do it ALL, but unfortunately I spent too much on DOB, HPD, Examiners, Expediters, Architects, Lawyers, Engineers. Now I have all permits, but no money for sauce on my pasta.
brucef | 12 years and 10 months ago
Ditto masterbuilder on the location of expertise and common sense between HVAC contractor and ME. Clueless in Seatle.
brucef | 12 years and 10 months ago
Search recent threads for Unico, a 4th option. Normally Unico is somewhat more pricey than traditional ducted, and is reserved for retro-fits when it is necessary to preserve original woodwork etc. Nevertheless, installation of Unico when the house is guttted, helps because the necessary cross section of the trunk duct is so much smaller. Going side to side up in the joists isn’t a problem for conventional, but in case your design requires going front to back, it is often easier to conceal a 9″X9″, rather than 9″X24″. Most HVAC do not do Unico, but if you connect with one that does them often, you may tap into a level of expertise that would protect you from the well intentioned but clueless contractors that “abound” in NYC.
masterbuilder | 12 years and 10 months ago
Per steam-man’s comment. The DOB would definitely take issue with piping not shown on the plans. The plumbing plans especially have to be 100% accurate. I’m not a specialist in HVAC, but my company oversees the installation of a variety of complex mechanical systems. Sometimes engineers stick with a brand or don’t realize they are selecting expensive custom options. Frankly they often reach out to my mechanical contractors for advice on solutions. My most practical tip is to insulate rigorously to offset your utility bills. We are also seeing more projects coming in designed for super-insulation, rigorously controlled airflow and energy recovery systems.
steam_man | 12 years and 10 months ago
A. Mini splits are typically more expensive because both the equipment costs more and the labor to install them is a bit more intensive. Not exceptionally more intensive but somewhat more so. The reason for this is the added PITA of running the drain lines and the fact that mini-split involve piping and electrical to multiple locations rather than one location as would be the case with a single ducted system. If you are in the process of a gut renovation I would definitely steer you towards a ducted split system as it can be installed cheaper and does a great job. As for running lines and installing the mini-split later, when your budget is less of a concern, well you could do that too. Just bear in mind that you will have pipes (hopefully well capped) and wires hanging out of your wall until the day comes when you will install the indoor units. Point of note on this option..DOB will probably want to see the plans show the system and a permit for this work (if it exceeds 3 or 5 tons depending on building classification) regardless of whether or not you actually have the equipment on site. I might be wrong here but I suspect they would consider it intent to install a system after sigh-off that would have otherwise required a permit. And you wouldn’t want to deny Bloomie his permit fee now would ya’?
boredatwork | 12 years and 10 months ago
If the place is gutted, get a quote from a AC contractor for a traditional system. Sleeve through the walls are ugly and will create problems down the road with leakage, etc. We faced a similar question about 10 years ago when we renovated and found the money to install a traditional system with two-zones. We are cooling three floors in a brownstone with a compressor and air handler on the roof, and another in the cellar. For the top floor we came through the roof and for the other two floors, up from the basement (where there is another airhandler) through the walls. Total cost then, about $20K. Good luck
rodriguezstudio | 12 years and 10 months ago
your mechanical emgineer should be providing you with the options, not the other way around. The ductless system costs more because of the equipment cost mainly (though sometimes unfamiliarity with the equipment by the installer plays into it as well). In the end ductless is a better system with more control options- but regular ducted is probably still better than thru-wall.
curated | 12 years and 10 months ago
Don’t know how many floors you have but you can probably do traditional ducted AC for less than 9k per floor.