boiler + radiator replacement

BruceF, that bottom pic shows the manifolds piped in with half the closely-spaced tees capped off. I think the installer didn’t get the concept of what those are about. You didn’t need the second manifold setup and the supply and return should’ve been joined as a loop.

Master Plvmber

in Plumbers and Plumbing 11 years and 5 months ago

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davbrook | 11 years and 5 months ago

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Hi Forum, I have a question regarding replacing an entire heating system. We a 4 floor brownstone garden + triplex 3800 soft. We are in the midst of a renovation and are now considering the possibility of replacing the entire heating system. Originally we were planning on keeping it since it works however the plumber has suggested that we change the whole system because it would allow us to put all the pipes in the walls we can replace the radiators and put in a new boiler. The current radiators are very large and this would allow us to exchange them for smaller ones and move them into more convenient locations. I am considering the option now since I know that it would be very difficult to do in the future. How much would you ballpark the cost to redo the entire system. New boiler with hot water maker repiping and replacing all radiators (cast iron with valves). thermostats on each floor. What questions should I ask? Any critical points I should be concerned with?

brucef | 11 years and 5 months ago

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Our situation is somewhat different because we are half in the trade (NJ but not NY) You don’t mention if your existing system is steam or hot water? New pipes in walls or dedicated plumbing chase – check. Radiators in better locations – check. No more exposed risers or pipes – check. Separate T-stats on each floor – check. Replacing existing radiators with smaller ones = not so much. In general, building a boiler room with elegance and design is a job for a knowledgeable plumber, not a hack. Hacks don’t realize they are hacks. They consider themselves experienced techs, and are oblivious to the fact that they repeatedly make design errors and butcher jobs. The onus is on you to know the difference, because the hacks truly believe they are good. Search this site for “boiler porn”.

ellenlourie | 11 years and 5 months ago

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Don’t listen to your plumber. If heating system works do not replace it. People who build it 80+ years ago were professionals. They knew what they were doing. You can replace boiler of you want. Switching steam to hot water heating does not pay, it is waste of money. Good steam system is as efficient as hot water system. Plumbers who deny it do not know how to properly set up steam system, and if they do not know steam system they do not know hot water systems as well. And if you will go for system replacement be prepared to pay in excess of 50K. Anything less will bring you more headaches than you can imagine. And please do not hire plumber to do heating systems. Find heating professional. Plumbers are terrible heating specialist, except very few. And the hacks and their clients think that what they do and what they get is normal. http://youtu.be/9OtVBKOHWyA

davbrook | 11 years and 5 months ago

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The system is water now, but was originally steam. that why they say the radiators are too large to be efficient. current system has only one thermostat and its a 2 unit building pipes are outside and would look better in the walls.

brucef | 11 years and 5 months ago

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If enough of the walls or ceilings are open, re-plumbing to better locations is quite easy. We do this all the time using PEX tubing. Although tubing, either 3/4″ or 1″ could be routed in a wall, it is usually easier to create a shallow (6″-8″) plumbing chase using Kindorf brackets, boxed out in drywall. Tip – make sure it is PEX-A, with superior flexibility and oxygen barrier. Radiators too big to be efficient? That is hard to imagine on an engineering level. To spec them and purchase them new, it might be too expensive and unnecessary. But you own them already. Radiators are supposed to be in-efficient. They are designed to lose all their heat, which is what you want. It’s not like an LED light where more energy is converted to light and the waste is heat. You want heat.

ellenlourie | 11 years and 5 months ago

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Pipes look better in the walls but can freeze there. Also they are additional heat emitters and being inside allow not to waste heat outdoor. You can insulate and box risers because of aesthetics, but do not move it into walls. ==== do not move risers into walls==== If you will install condensing modulation boiler with outdoor reset, large size radiators will let system operate on lower water temperature. It increases efficiency of the system and shifts heat emittance more into radiant than convection. The comfort will increase ====== Large radiators are good. ======= Contemporary hot water systems operate on principles of constant flow and modulating water temperature as a function of outside temperature. It is called outdoor reset. If you will use TRVs , thermostatic radiator valves, then each room will be controlled individually and it is called indoor reset. You can install standard efficiency boiler and copycat modern hydronic principles but it will cost the same amount as condensing system. Separate thermostats in each floor will lead to breaking minimum load into even smallest loads and short cycling of the boiler, wear and tear of the equipment and increased fuel bills. It can be fixed by installation of a buffer tank, but is extremely expensive. ===== no additional thermostats and additional zones ===== Also, some of the contractors are using pex tubing instead of copper Or black piping for hydronic distribution systems. I would avoid it and if you decide to do modifications do it without using pex tubing

Master Plvmber | 11 years and 5 months ago

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“that why they say the radiators are too large to be efficient” Wait. What? Why would anybody say such nonsense? You need better advice by someone qualified to work on a heating system. Ask your contractor to bring in a specialist for another opinion. Echoing Gennady’s sentiments, “Plumbers are terrible heating specialist, except very few.” I hate to say it, but he’s kinda right. I like to call them “kitchens-n-bathrooms plumbers”. I’m a licensed plumber, but I have no interest in talking about things like drains and faucets. I’m a heat guy. Meanwhile, my brother, also a licensed plumber, can quote Code and plumbing theory all day long and he loves it. In Williamsburgh, my techs installed a high efficiency boiler in a residential multi-family building that used to be a school and because it was once a City building, it was over engineered and the radiators were way bigger than they had to be for the rooms they served. Long story short, the system we put in has never needed to circulate water hotter than 138° because the surface area of the large rads gave off so much heat. Most systems run at about 180°. Cooler water, especially lower than 140°, is the goal when seeking high efficiency.

hawaiismurf | 11 years and 5 months ago

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I have a similar sized space and received a quote for brand new steam system for 5 level 4000 sf space for about 60k. Including new boiler , pipes, radiators, etc

Master Plvmber | 11 years and 5 months ago

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Someone quoted you on a brand new “steam” system? Or do you mean a hot water system?