Kitchen / Bathroom Reno in 1880 brownstone
Hello, I am about to resume my renovations, and need some suggestions. I have two very small bathrooms which were originally meant only for a tub (outhouse was out back). Over the years toilets and (corner) sinks were crammed in. Plumbing is on the outside of the walls. I need to make one bathroom larger, expanding by knocking down the wall to the bedroom. I want to keep the character, tub, sink etc. but do I need to redo the plumbing? Or can it just be sheetrocked over? Anyone know of a contractor who would be sensitive to such a project? I also have a very old non working stove, cast iron, that was a wood / gas combo. It is not in good condition but I would like to have it refurbished, for decoration purposes, not to actually work. Anyone know of someone who can get rid of the rust and re enamel? Lastly, windows. Need to repair old ones and frames, not willing to replace them. Suggestions? Many Thx c1876
c1876
in Bath & Kitchen 11 years and 9 months ago
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13 replies
handyrenny | 11 years and 9 months ago
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slu2 | 11 years and 9 months ago
The scope of your work is worth you to invest a little money into. This means hiring an architect and licensed contractors (Plumber/Electrician/etc) to investigate your bathroom and to do the work. The main factor in consideration, is the age of your building/house, laws have changed, if you’re going to renovate, mind as well do it right. I agree with GreenMountain about the compromised joist of never repaired since they were built run down cramped fixture bathrooms, or maybe the situation is not as bad as I am imagining it to be…. Either way, go for the new plumbing pipes, you don’t want to have renovated your bathroom, to have everything that went down the hole, to come back up… SLu2.
cate | 11 years and 9 months ago
Bruce F, of course if the OP’s joists have been compromised or the floors are rotted, he should fix those structural issues. Likewise, if he needs vents, he should have them. We’ve seen our joists and they’re fine. As for the vents, our fixtures are located next to the main stack and we have zero problems with drainage. If the OP’s situation requires adding vents to conform to modern code, I would highly suggest consulting an architect or interior designer about the entire project. They can maximize use of the space and make it look beautiful.
cate | 11 years and 9 months ago
Another tip: If you have a wall-hung sink with exposed plumbing, use a licensed plumber if you’re going to re-do the lines for that particular fixture. Discuss with them in advance what kind of parts you want to use. They will get the appropriate metal, and they can use semi-rigid speedies so you have a shut off at the fixture. They have the right tools to cut and bend these to size, and they look great. If you’re going to put in fixed nickel waste and supply lines for the tub, a licensed plumber is usually better able to handle this than a contractor, although some contractors have experience with it. Here are some photos of fun installations with vintage parts: http://www.oldplumbfixer.com/servicesandjobphotos.html
cate | 11 years and 9 months ago
Here are a couple cute vintage look bathrooms that are new: http://www.themarionhousebook.com/black-walls/ http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/blog/2012/06/the-insider-flying-colors-in-fort-greene/
cate | 11 years and 9 months ago
By the way, we also have supply pipes outside our walls, which I thought was how they were laid originally, so I wanted to keep them. But in fact, when we opened up the ceiling below, there were the old lead pipes going through the joists. N ow I wish I had taken out the supply pipes added in the 1930s and run new ones through the holes for the old lead pipes when we had everything open. If I did so, the risers could also come up more cleanly under each fixture. Whereas now they come through some odd areas they shouldn’t and are a bit of a tangled mess. You can order beautiful nickel waste and supply lines for the claw foot tub through some specialty supply such as Vintage Tub and Bath online. What is on your walls and floor? Do you have tile, wood, bead board or plaster? You can decide on any finish you like, keep the old fixtures, make it look any way you want — it can look really good, authentically vintage — and have all new plumbing guaranteed not to leak.
greenmountain | 11 years and 9 months ago
The airplane analogy is not overly dramatic. I have seen many structurally compromised joists from often and ineffectively repaired bathrooms. Cast iron bathtubs are heavy, heavier when full of water, heavier still when a person gets in. When they fall through a ceiling, they likely will continue to fly through the similarly neglected bathroom(s) below, until landing in the basement or cellar. On the 3rd floor of a 16 unit building on Park Place near Vanderbilt, three 3 x 10″ joists were rotten so only 1/2″ of sound lumber remained in the middle of the room, and the ends at the exterior wall were no longer supported by the brick wall. As the floor sagged, supply pipes were lengthened, more than once. Each time, the new joints became stressed again and continued dripping. The mushy joists, like old logs on a forest floor, had sprouted fungus, and were also kept wet by a rusted hole in the tub trap and a blocked downspout from the roof. The 300 lb tub itself was teetering on wood lathe, plaster, firing strips and layers of Sheetrock.
greenmountain | 11 years and 9 months ago
The airplane analogy is not overly dramatic. I have seen many structurally compromised joists from often and ineffectively repaired bathrooms. Cast iron bathtubs are heavy, heavier when full of water, heavier still when a person gets in. When it falls through a ceiling, it likely will continue to fly through the similarly neglected bathroom(s) below, until landing in the basement or cellar. On the 3rd floor of a 16 unit building on Park Place near Vanderbilt, three 3 x 10″ joists were rotten so only 1/2″ of sound lumber remained in the middle of the room, and the ends at the exterior wall were no longer supported by the brick wall. As the floor sagged, supply pipes were lengthened, more than once. Each time, the new joints became stressed again and continued dripping. The mushy joists, like old logs on a forest floor, had sprouted fungus, and were also kept wet by a rusted hole in the tub trap and a blocked downspout from the roof. The 300 lb tub itself was teetering on wood lathe, plaster, firing strips and layers of Sheetrock.
brucef | 11 years and 9 months ago
c1876, You are on the right track by seeking guidance from this community, it shows that you know enough to know that you don’t know enough. Nevertheless, the difficulty remains of figuring out which of the advice offered is sound. Some areas of renovation are subjective, a matter of taste, preference, perfection vs. “good enough”. Perfect examples, windows or old stove. Other areas are active mechanical spaces. They are the nexus of pressurized and gravity based flows of liquids. They are often the center of electrical, ventilation, traffic, and utility. Think of the difference between an antique airplane and a piano. The piano hopefully sounds good and is in tune, and the keys all work. If it needs work, we can look at it, and even use it a bit. We can futz and tinker. The antique airplane hopefully will start when we want it to, but it better fly and land properly or you’re in big trouble. A bathroom is the plane in this analogy (But I bet you knew that). You have said that – Over the years toilets and (corner) sinks were crammed in. I can guarantee that over time, few of the tradesmen who performed that “cramming” took the time to make a coherent plan that coordinated all the competing priorities. I would bet that one of these “crammers” cut a support joist under the floor. This is both inexcusable and understandable. DO THIS PART OF YOUR JOB THE RIGHT WAY. If you don’t have the time or money to do it right the first time, how will you have it to do over? The only way to tell how much damage there is under the sub floor is to demo till you can see. There is no other way. Sorry Cate, I know you mean well, but you help no one by saying “If you are happy with the floor”, or “We don’t need no stinkin vents”. Your long term successful renovation is built on a foundation of a few areas done correctly, that will outlast all of us. Leave the “sheetrocking over”, and the “if you are happy with your floor” to the Flippers. Want to patch the windows – what’s the worst that can happen? They’ll leak, or stick, or wok pretty well. Later you can fix them better. They are the piano. Baths are the sources of greatest waste and repeated renovations. I’m not cruising for the work, and I have 40 years experience (that sounds bad). I know of what I speak. There will be a quiz next period.
greenmountain | 11 years and 9 months ago
Would c1876 please explain why you are resistant to new pipes? Is it because licensed plumbers charge $1,500/fixture? In a 3 fixture bathroom, $4,500 for the licensed plumber is often non-competitive when lower bids are submitted including un-licensed plumbing, or not including plumbing. In any case, I see a lot of old and bad plumbing in the “renovated” bathrooms I am asked to renovate again.
mruby36 | 11 years and 9 months ago
If you define sensitivity as bringing patience and creativity to the project so as to preserve the character of your home as well as your budget, please allow me to toss my name in for your consideration. Along with the above suggestions comes the need to have things taken apart no more than needed, sub trades coordinated, and then rebuild, trim and finish like its been this way all along. I couldn’t speak to any window alternative without seeing the extent of repair needed. Sometimes the repairs are straight forward but if not, there are some good window restoration companies around to explore if the scope of work needed calls for subbing this out. My contact details are on my site if you’d like to reach out to discuss this further. Thanks! Matt R www.nyc-hs.com
cate | 11 years and 9 months ago
The bathroom is really straightforward. You need a contractor who will take all the fixtures out, then open up the floors and/or ceilings below (depending on your situation). It’s really easy to run new supply lines. While you’re at it, and everything is open, it would be wise to replace all the waste and vents as well. Personally, I would hire a licensed plumber for the actual plumbing, although many contractors can handle this as well, since the plumbing is pretty basic. You may need a lead bend under the toilet. Then the contractor should close everything back up, plaster, paint, etc. There is also the question of whether you want to rebuild the floor, either to put in new tile, or to reinforce any joists or boards that have water damage. But if you’re happy with the floor, you don’t need to do this. If you have tile, and need to match the original, check out Restoration Tile in Arkansas. The only downside is the licensed plumbers may insist you put in new vents to code that there is no room for. If there is room, great. But you don’t want and won’t have room for soffits all over the place since the room is so small. If the fixtures are close enough to the stack it’s not really necessary. We were able to replumb with licensed plumbers and they agreed not to worry about the vents. You just have to be very clear that is not going to happen. Find a contractor who is good enough with woodworking that they will match the floor in the bedroom where you expand. Re the windows, this is a very do-able project. Unfortunately I am not allowed to recommend craftspeople because I work for Brownstoner. Very sorry. As for the stove, google vintage stoves. Unfortunately, I don’t know one in the New York area who does the enamel work. Maybe Elmira Stove Works? Forgot to say above: After the bathroom is done, then the contractor puts the old vintage fixtures back exactly where they were. By the way, be sure to mark their location with a pencil! It’s not nearly as obvious as you would think.
greenmountain | 11 years and 9 months ago
You almost certainly need to replace plumbing parts behind your walls. I may or may not be a sensitive contractor, but I have evidence. I keep a collection of old pipes removed from bathrooms like yours to show people why they should and probably must redo their pipes when they renovate. “Just sheetrocked over” (out of site, out of mind) is not a good way to manage the flow of water; aesthetic or space-use considerations also apply. Enamel is glass, baked on to metal in an oven. You could take this to an object conservator, if you feel your antique stove deserves this type of historic restoration. Or, you could look for another period stove in better condition. To a sensitive contractor this concern indicates a “high end” bathroom renovation.