Wood paneling under windows
When there is wood paneling under a window, does it typically sit directly on the masonry wall. Or is there something between the panel and the masonry?
Guest User | 4 years ago
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hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 11 months ago
Yes that makes sense. I thought post was about insulation on the inside so was a bit confused.
stevecym | 3 years and 11 months ago
Sorry jane. I had mentioned water and then you spoke about moisture. I was still thinking of lines of water running down the inside wall.
stevecym | 3 years and 11 months ago
Vard, the outer face of an exterior wall is unheated. Water will often leak to the inside of structures and inexperienced people think it is ok to stop water from coming inside by sealing the inside. That can trap water in the outer layer of mortar, the cold outside. Not too many people understand this and the problems that can result and the only reason I know it myself is because I’ve walked around building envelopes with engineers, assessing damage to mortar walls, and I have to deal with the issues around entryways. I see it first hand.
Guest User | 3 years and 11 months ago
Respectfully disagree. I have no intention of arguing here on this topic. I’ve already done the research and applied that process and it works inside. Obviously if you have water coming right through your walls that needs to get addressed first.
Yes water entry should be stopped from the outside first. But once the outside is corrected, the process outlined above works on the interior wall. No moisture is being trapped. The key here is ensuring vapor permeability.
Vapour diffusion: Vapor diffusion is the movement of moisture in the vapor state because of a vapor pressure difference (concentration gradient) or a temperature difference (thermal gradient). Overall, the direction of vapor drive has important ramifications to the placement of materials within a wall assembly. Improper placement of materials in a wall can lead to condensation on colder surfaces, water-damaged insulation and building materials, as well as fungal growth. Often refer red to as breathability, vapor permeability describes a material’s ability to allow water vapor to pass through it (measured in units called perms). Materials with lower perm ratings are better at stopping the movement of water vapor. It should be noted that all materials have a vapor resistance, also referred to as permeance, and can be categorized as permeable (greater than 10 perms), semi-permeable (10 perms or less and greater than 1.0 perm), semi-impermeable (1.0 perms or less and greater than 0.1 perm) or impermeable (0.1 perms of less).
hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years and 11 months ago
I’m lost reading this thread – where is it unheated?
stevecym | 3 years and 11 months ago
Jane, sorry. Any time anyone tries to stop water once it has penetrated the exterior shell by putting something on the inside that keeps it from going to wherever it’s trying to go- be it by using caulk or mortar or whatever – they are creating more problems. Once the water has gotten in, it is better to let it flow out of its entry point to allow the mortar to dry, hopefully. Trapping moisture in the unheated outer surface of mortar will lead to freezing and a few years of that will result in a full on problem with loose mortar and spraying, etc.
Water has to be stopped from the outside. Period. It does not matter the construction material. If it is wood and we caulk on the inside it will lead to rot occurring much faster than if the leak were left to dry on it’s own.
This is one instance when it is better to do nothing, even if that is less than ideal.
Guest User | 3 years and 11 months ago
I agree there is likely to be water but would follow these steps and insulate. Remove the panel. If there is water or dampness, clean surfaces and let dry. Apply mortar to the wall to reduce the moisture coming in, then apply an air/moisture barrier (that is vapor permeable) then insulate with rockwool batt insulation which won’t trap water. Then reinstall the wood panel.
stevecym | 3 years and 11 months ago
I would not insulate behind them. If water gets in and gets trapped, there will be smelly issues.
slimc | 3 years and 11 months ago
Those wood panels get awful cold in winter. I’ve often wondered how to insulate behind them.
stevecym | 4 years ago
Black to what colonial said, about the bricks breathing. I have been in unfinished old brick houses during rain storms and have seen a line or two of water leaking in on the brick. If someone where to lay panels right to the wall, that could potentially hold water and during a rainy period fail to dry and become a problem. I am guessing that is why the plaster on many houses is often thrown right to the brick on the common walls but set off on furring at the front and rear. So no, a panel should not be set to brick.
stevecym | 4 years ago
So also this, today someone can probably find a way to lay plywood to brick and do this without furring, possibly by using great dabs of construction adhesive in the lower spots on the brick wall and less on the high spots and pushing the plywood against it. Years ago, these panels were site built out of shop rabbeted wood. Trying to lay out and assemble that directly on brick would be like trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together on a water bed.
I had to think about that, to consider if it was possible to do. It would be difficult and trying to set old square nails into the mortar would have made a disaster out of it.
stevecym | 4 years ago
It is easier to lay it up on plaster. Plaster over lath will be smoother than rough brick. Brick can be so uneven that when furring the brick out even the furring can come out uneven or the furring must be run, not on a set grid pattern, but on a random one where the furring is placed where it sits best when compared to the pieces that will be around it. Usually this is done by setting the end furring in the low spots and building the remainder out to the same place, by running a string across the wall. It’s a pain in the … and too slow for us and before I knew better I used to do it. Now I’d rather go to the dentist. Today of course we would lay drywall on that and then our panel but years ago plaster would have made a nicer surface than the brick or even bare furring.
In case anyone is contemplating doing this, I will continue:
A modern way to do this, if one were ok with flat panels, is to lay plywood up on the finished wall and build the stiles and rails onto the plywood and stick them out with panel molding and no one will know the difference. Most of this can be done using construction adhesive with a few nails to hold it until that sets. And better again the nails holding the plywood can be set under where the top and bottom rails will run. This is much easier and faster to do than making rabbeted stiles and rails and making and setting panels to them and then trimming out.
Any manner of plywood can be used, paint grade birch, oak, mahogany.
If you are wondering what is behind a current panel, try knocking on the stiles and rails and see if parts of them sound hollow. Not all of the stiles and rails will sit on the furring and even those that do will not be entirely on it. As for the panels, the way they made these old systems, with the panel resting on say a 1/4″ rabbet, the panel should always be off the wall, be it plaster or brick, so knocking on it will not indicate much.
RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 4 years ago
We have c a space behind ours
stevecym | 4 years ago
“Furring”.
colonialrevival | 4 years ago
Exterior walls usually have framing, lath, and plaster in front of them so the bricks can breathe. In the case of paneling, there is still generally that framing behind it. Some houses may have plaster behind the paneling as well.