What's the width of your window trim?

So, as part of an increasingly quixotic quest to add back some of the “original” detail that was stripped from our circa-1867 Italianate brownstone in Brooklyn, we acquired some old window trim from a circa-1873 Italianate brownstone on the UES that was undergoing a total gut reno. But now that we’re getting closer to the “fun” and not “insanely expensive” part of our own semi-gut reno, we’re facing a dilemma, because the designer/contractor feels that the 6-inch-width might be too wide in relation to the rest of the home’s proportions (the living room on the parlor floor is roughly 11’x17′ with 10.5′ ceilings, and the brownstone itself is rather shallow, at 19’x35′).

She suggested “trimming it down” (ugh, I’ll stop) from a 6″-width to 5″ or so and then replicating that profile as needed (we’ll have to replicate quite a bit either way, as not enough trim survived entirely intact). There wouldn’t be too many issues with matching since we’ll be painting it (get off our backs: it’s just plain pine, and we’re talking 1860s/1870s, so it likely would have been painted to begi n with).

Now, I personally feel the window trim widths would have been more or less consistent from one brownstone to the next, from the narrowest 12-footer to the grandest 26-foot mansion. But… I have absolutely no reference. So I figured I’d ask the helpful brownstone-dwellers/oglers on this forum for your thoughts (and trim-measurements).

Thanks for your help/measurements…

Guest User | 5 years and 1 month ago

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Guest User | 5 years and 1 month ago

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Thanks to everyone for all the thoughts, photos, and measurements– it’s all been incredibly helpful. Steve, we were actually planning to go with Adriatic, and our designer has figured out a way to (hopefully) replicate the pattern in just two pieces to save on cost… but thanks to your thoughts (and everyone else’s), I’m going to push for keeping the original width. MDR, thanks for the photo; I believe this window trim also originally had an outer band that followed the baseboard. It’s still on a few pieces of the salvaged trim, but we weren’t necessarily going to try to replicate that. The renovation/restoration philosophy is more of a “modern interpretation of classical brownstone features,” if that makes sense (since all the original details were stripped away, probably around the 1930s).

MDR | 5 years and 1 month ago

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The trim is probably more appropriate left wider. I live in a 1877 Italianate and the trim is 6″ at the deepest part and has a 7″ overall width. The outer 1″ band of trim turns horizontal at the baseboard – it becomes the top of the baseboard. [IMG_8074](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:E3Ex:img_8074.jpg.jpg)

cate | 5 years and 1 month ago

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One caveat to keep in mind: The old Italianate trim tends to have deep valleys, and the new molding profiles tend to be shallow. You will have a piece of the old trim with you so when you are at Dyke’s or Adriatic, you can compare in person.

stevecym | 5 years and 1 month ago

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i should have looked at the photos first.

it appears that the trim is a 4 or 5 part molding. this is going to be problematic when it comes time to produce the make up pieces; i do not think this can be made in one piece due to the profile and even if it could, it is pricey as the wider and heavier stock is pricier (as wood gets wider and heavy, the price increases out of scale with the size). cutting knives for something like this might run into 1200 (it might be able to be done in two pieces if you are lucky; three if you are not) before purchasing the wood. people at adriatic can tell you faster than i can.

so this is your quandary: do you keep the old and make up the needed pieces or source all new? if you go to Dykes or Adriatic (adriatic stocks the Dykes catalog and they grind knives and cut on site), they can show you stock pieces that can be put together to make something very similar – all new – for perhaps the same price of a few knife cuts. this would give you new wood with no holes and no damage to sand out. you would get poplar which will pa int up a little better than the old pine. you may have to rip an edge off a piece here or there to make a built up molding like this work, but you have already said you are prepared for that; all this can be done on site by the installer. (as much as you don’t like the idea, ripping edges of trim to make what is needed is common practice).

you can also see if you can have the main big piece made up as a custom profile and either try to find a like stock back band and use it to fill where needed or replace all the back band.

what i have just put before you is a conversation that takes place every time a small piece of trim has to be replaced. in many cases we ditch the old and go with new. unless you are creating a museum, it comes down to economics.

cate | 5 years and 1 month ago

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The original moldings and the salvage moldings you have posted photos of all look great for an 1860s Italianate. As someone else said, Italianate moldings are BIG. What will look terrible and wrong is skimpy moldings that are not wide enough. The size of the molding has nothing to do with the width of the house. FWIW, our rather modest 1895 house has 6-inch-wide moldings throughout the house on both the garden and parlor floors.

NeoGrec | 5 years and 1 month ago

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Personally, I think the scale looks fine. Italianate moldings are infamous for being pretty huge. Most of the reference books — like Charles Lockwood’s BRICKS AND BROWNSTONES or the free to download LPC ROW HOUSE MANUAL (nyc.gov) — cover exterior features in great detail but are light on interior details. But there are some inexpensive reprints of 19th century “style” books from Dover Press that offer a wealth of information, including drawings. Bicknell’s VICTORIAN ARCHITECTURAL DETAILS is a good source. First published in 1873, it’s definitely smack in the middle of the Italianate era.

stevecym | 5 years and 1 month ago

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if you are going to go through the trouble of having a knife made and having a custom profile made to make up what is missing, it will not be much more money to run more trim. unless the casement you have is in beautiful condition and that being without 50 layers of paint on it, i would just make all new. you can talk to Erich at Adriatic Wood Products on Pitkin Ave about cost and having this made.

i just looked at the width of the casement in my modest 1920’s queens home and it is 4.5″ and very simple. i see nothing wrong with 6″ casement in a home like yours. i go into a lot of Brownstones and have done a lot of casement (in the past but i still do some around doors) and while i never gave the width much consideration as i was installing what the customer chose, even wide trim, done right, in an updated house will look good. sometimes it is the busy old trim that gives the modern minimalist house that odd twist that reaches back to the past. keep in mind colors and finish might impact your feeling on this matter more than width; if you want bright and airy, don’t install dark mahogany trim. paint it white and it will look the part. and the finish of the paint counts as well; perhaps a pearl finish over semi gloss?

and by the way, most of the early trim in the houses in this city was made of pine and pine was made to be painted, not stained. it sounds counter intuitive, but paint on trim bespoke wealth prior to the late 19th century when we began importing woods such as mahogany.

sometimes when i am having to discuss these kinds of things with customers, i take a look at New York Interiors by Joseph Byron. photos of 19th and early 20th century interiors including at least one in Brooklyn (in the heights, me thinks). even if such a book does not allay your concern, most of the readers here will enjoy perusing a copy.

Steve
www.thetinkerswagon.com

Guest User | 5 years and 1 month ago

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I can post a picture of my trim later today if helpful. I studied architecture and worked in design. Just so you know that I am not providing uninformed advice. Even though some of this is a matter of taste… int he end. You have ti live with it and be comfortable with it no matter what others say.

Arkady | 5 years and 1 month ago

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That’s approximately the ratio I have. Maybe I’m just accustomed to it but it looks normal to me.

Guest User | 5 years and 1 month ago

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Thanks for posting. It looks better full width to me. The best place to start would be neighbors to see what size their trim is . Mine is a later house and the trim is 7″.

Guest User | 5 years and 1 month ago

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Had trouble including these photos, but here’s the trim, a piece of the trim leaning against a window for scale, a sideview, and the trim in its former home. [Trim1](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:5PTD:trim1.jpg.jpg) [Trimforscale](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:rOlu:trimforscale.jpg.jpg) [Trim2](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:gATf:trim2.jpg.jpg) [TrimInSitu1](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:2r66:triminsitu1.jpeg.jpg)