Updating amps to condo building
I’m in the process of a reno and recently learned that we need to upgrade amps to run hvac, but it seems this would require pulling more power from the street, not just within our building. The condo, as a whole, could use more power, but not sure if it technically is in violation. How can I determine if this is something the condo should pay for or if I should bypass the condo to just supply more amps for my unit?
coloradodraincleaner
in General Discussion 5 years and 11 months ago
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stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
reballen: in a commercial building i once worked in the DOB stated old knife blade switches on the main feed coming into the building were ok as they were grandfathered, but the insurance company told us they had to go. is that a possible route? for some reason, sometimes insurance companies ask to inspect a property. it happen to my neighbor on a small two family and they made him change some things.
also, now that i think of it, someone else i know was ordered to remove those old fuses but i think that was done by the lender during a sale. or maybe the insurance co?
nyc_sport | 5 years and 10 months ago
There is no requirement to change out old fuse boxes, but if you are doing significant permitted electric work you will need to bring your unit up to code, which means breakers (and arc fault breakers). Whether you can convince your neighbors they should volunteer for that as well, or that the condo should modernize all around, is a different question. If there is really only 35 amps to each unit I suspect that others are throwing fuses with large window a/cs. I assume you have a licensed electrician. There may be lots of potential solutions for you that only those on site could evaluate. Just because the current box in the basement is rated for 200 amps does not necessarily mean that is all it can supply.
coloradodraincleaner | 5 years and 10 months ago
It looks like we might have grandfathered fuse boxes that have not been updated to breakers. Is there a case to be made to have the building update this? Is this something the DOB cares about? Thanks for any insights!
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
GT, thank you for that. i have more questions but i will let this rest for now. i appreciate your honesty as i am reading stuff on the ‘net where they rattle on and never admit they might not know – and i cannot sort through it all.
GreenThinker | 5 years and 10 months ago
Most people know about surges and it’s just common to have a power strip with surge protection. But not many know about brownouts/Under voltage. Devices are available that protect both from surges and under voltage. 25-90 dollars, and if they work, they cut off power to the device. Though from my research, companies that make them aren’t very specific at what kind of drop in what time frame is required to actually set them off. Basically, from my research, if you are an individual that is worried about it and wants some sense of security, it’s available to buy and install inexpensively. It doesn’t effect your system to have it, and best case it might actually work to protect it.
I don’t know how low voltage effects circuitry. But i’m sure companies and their engineers think about it and design for variance. My parents bought a bosch dishwasher 25 years ago, made in germany; still works and cleans dishes just the same as when it was bought. And i’m sure it went through a wide range of voltage ups and downs. A Fridge seems to last 10-15 years no matter what. I’ve never e xperienced or heard of something failing because of under voltage. It’s more likely the equipment will reach it’s end of service life.
As for as 12 gauge wire. The difference between 12 gauge wire and 14 gauge wire is 3 cents a foot. So, not so much as a waste of money, it’s just the standard wire someone who isn’t a complete cheap-stake will use. It’s also still flexible and thin enough to manage in electrical boxes and connect to standard switches and outlets. It’s also not just the gauge that is important but the insulation rating of the wire. A 14 gauge wire that has THWN-2, THHN, XHHW-2, or USE-2 written on it is rated at 25 amps at 90C(194F). A lower rated insulation, 20 amps at 75C(167F). A breaker is 5 amps less, derating the cable so it never reaches its limit.
Fires caused by electrical wires happen because of poor insulation. The old stuff is wrapped in fabric that was dosed in some sort of liquid that made it more fire resistant. But in reality, it’ll catch on fire and in turn, anything nearby will then also catch on fire. By upgrading the electrical in your apartment, the safety aspect isn’t so much that it’s better copper that can handle more voltage, it’s that the cable/wire and breakers are designed and made to a better standard than what was once available. Factor in codes that make it less likely someone will have use a power strip to connect several high demand appliances to one cable. Which are another cause of fires, cheap power strip melts/sparks and catches the carpet on fire.
I’ll end this with also stating that with improvements to technology. Led bulbs/Inverter compressors/modulating controllers. While we might have more appliances and devices connected, they use a lot less energy and are more efficient in converting it than devices in the past.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
and green do you know what you just told me by letting us know about con ed and their sloppy supply; that all this 12 gauge wire i run in my house is a waste of money.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
i never really worried about low voltage on motors even though that is what others seem concerned about (in my trade). and i have a lot of motors (table saw, lathe, grinders etc; the table saw is the one i worry about because i use it daily). but the circuitry on these modern fridges and dishwashers? what about them, no chance? i know too much voltage will fry them, but not under? it sounds like this is your thing (and i took an electric class eons ago; a lot of this stuff was only coming into being and i did not ask the questions). so what are the chances on them? nil? now that you said it, what is the under voltage protection people are using? i never heard of such a beast.
someone once told me con ed ran at 108. i put a meter to it when i was trying to decide where to run my generator at and it was 122 or 121 point something. how much variance can we allow on this modern stuff? if it went to 108, is that too low?
what does low voltage protection do when it works? shut the machine down?
i have been reading about some of this and some of the answers are all over the place and i know a lot of electricians but am not sure they really have the effect on sensitive circuitry down (they know what they are told).
thank you,
GreenThinker | 5 years and 10 months ago
While under voltage could potentially ruin a motor, it’s highly unlikely. Some people put low voltage protection on their expensive hvac units cause it’s not an expensive device to buy for the piece of mind it brings. But It’s really more of an issue of the electrical grid itself, during summer heat waves; when there’s intense demand, the voltage drops in whole neighborhoods/city wide, some say ConEd drops this in less affluent neighborhoods on purpose. But I don’t believe in that personally. So, you can have good wiring in your building, and good wiring coming in from the street, but your air conditioner still won’t be blowing cool air at 100% cause there’s only so much a utility can provide in general when there’s 7 million + people wanting a piece.
stevecym | 5 years and 10 months ago
when we moved in our house, we felt wealthy having 100 amps as the apt we came from had 60. we soon found with the dedicated lines for two ac units, the fridge, dishwasher that 100 amps is nothing. and i used to listen to people brag about their new 200 amp service on LI and think they were hogs (no green thinking there, ehh Green Thinker?).
the scenario i worry about in over loading con ed’s line is not the problem it will cause for con ed but the damage that can be caused to appliances by running such appliances as over lines that are undersized. voltage drop can occur and does damage things (besides the lines and that drop will occur for a long time before the lines fry) and i suppose we should also worry that if it drops if we all turn our a/c’s and dishwashers on at the same time, that it can spike when they all turn off at the same time. when we put a new fridge and dishwasher in here, i put them on dedicated 15 amp circuits as required by code but i ran them on 12 gauge (read 20 amp) wire so they would never feel starved. in fact, all circuits i run in my house are always run 12 gauge wire, even the breaker i am using calls for 14 gauge. whats a few cents to protect that bosch dishwasher i worked my behind off to buy? In fact, we are warned about using undersized wire in the construction trades (not for installation; i am a wood worker not an electrician), with the damage we can do to our own equipment by running too many saws on too small a line – and contractors’ tools are cheap compared to the things in a modern kitchen.
i am going through calculations like this now (not on paper, but in my head every time hurricane season rolls around) as we have a generator here and it is mounted in the shed 30′ from the electric circuits I will reverse feed to power my house. i am worried about overloading the feed lines and the effect on the new appliances (i never gave a crap about the old ones). these lines, like con ed’s, will not be protected from over load by circuits as i have those in the panel box but no protection will be at the generator side. as with Green Thinker, i don’t care about the lines. But i am worried about the new appliances. in either case, if the lines are too small and equipment becomes damaged, it is on us.
since i am not an electrician, i should probably study this more and you may not want to consider what i am saying (i may not even study it, i may just buy lines i know to be oversized). but perhaps someone can come on here and advise us all if overloading the main feeds can be detrimental to the end user and if we should be concerned about it.
GreenThinker | 5 years and 10 months ago
Usually it’s overstated. But lets say the cable from the cellar service box to your apartment is too small. You can have it replaced with a larger cable. (budget allowing) Everything that is before the meter is ConEd’s problem. When i redid the electrical in my home, my electrician put in 150 amp cable’s to each apartment, but ConEd wouldn’t replace their cable that comes in from the street. If it does ever fail, they replace it and it doesn’t cost the building owner a thing.
coloradodraincleaner | 5 years and 10 months ago
Thanks, greenthinker. I’m just looking at the load calc. and it says we need 100, but perhaps that is overstated? The building has 200, but we only have 35 to our unit (apparently it said 60 amps on our box, but only 35 is running to the unit…).
GreenThinker | 5 years and 10 months ago
You could do a load calculation. Keep it mind not everything runs at the same time. A modern fridge uses about 6 amps, a dishwasher 8 amps, washer 10 amps, hair dryer 10 amps. Your typical 3 family house only has a service wire that on paper is good for 70 amps, yet everything works. Mine has 3 induction stoves with 40 amp feeds each, and 5 window air conditioners that run all the time in the summer. Service cable is still fine. If you have modern appliances, there really isn’t a big draw of power at any one given moment.
coloradodraincleaner | 5 years and 10 months ago
Thanks for the responses, everyone. The main breaker seems to have 60 amps, but we’re being told we need 100 amps. Appreciate all the guidance.
stevecym | 5 years and 11 months ago
delepp: could depend on the spaces left in the box and even if if there is room, something called “gutter” space around the breakers. if there is plenty of power, i often wonder if a sub panel will work.
DeLepp | 5 years and 11 months ago
My building is just like yours and to do mini splits each electrician has said that we need new boxes for each unit at $3K a unit. Our boxes are from 1983. Didn’t realize these things have a shelf life. Plenty of power coming from street.
coloradodraincleaner | 5 years and 11 months ago
Thanks for the response. The building was built in 1880 and is about 10 smaller-sized units (converted to condo in the 80s). So, it does seem the building is under supplied (would love to magically learn otherwise). Not sure if there are any other work arounds..
daveinbedstuy | 5 years and 11 months ago
What does the main breaker to the box for your unit have on it as far as AMPS?
GreenThinker | 5 years and 11 months ago
Either someone isn’t communicating properly or you are misunderstanding. A 48k btu mini split h2i hvac system at most takes 42 amps with a recommended breaker size of 50 amps. Even if you are looking into another system, it’s highly unlikely it’ll need more than 45 amps. And thats if you’re cooling or heating the whole condo at the lowest or highest temp and the compressor is working at peak. If you’re only heating two rooms, the system could be using lets say 15 amps.
It’s likely that the building service is fine, but the wire running from the cellar panel to your unit is too low of a gauge, for instance a number 6 gauge wire supports around 65 amps. Which could still work for your situation, but if it’s 8 gauge wire, that’s only good for around 50 amps. Which doesn’t leave enough wiggle room.
eman134 | 5 years and 11 months ago
not a chance in hell that the building will agree to increase their street feed… you should have looked into this prior to purchase… the condo does not owe you squat