Three Story 2-Family, No CO - Worth getting CO for 3-fam?

I’d like to solicit some opinions as I’ll soon be making a decision here. I have a three-story brick rowhouse (English basement + 2 stories on top, so officially “two story” in DOB records), taxed as a two. There is no CO. It’s about 18.5″ wide, the top floor being a standalone apartment and the bottom two floors very loosely joined as one duplex.

As I’m about to start renovations for the top floor and just the top floor, I’m starting to have second thoughts: if I think about it holistically, each floor has ingress and egress points, and sufficient width, to be a three-family dwelling (and not to mention I could add 1500 sf because of my FAR).

From an investor perspective, the question boils down to, is it absolutely insanely cost ineffective to take a house such as this with no CO, get a loan and pursue the path of obtaining a CO for a 3? From a rental income perspective, it’s at least another 1-2K a month of income to have three separate apartments versus one plus one large duplex.

I read horror stories of people being bled dry by how long this can take whi le inspectors find new violations. Sure, this home is full of potential violations as it stands. Is the sprinkler system installation the ‘biggest deal’ here?

Questions like this one pop up from time-to-time, but a lot of the are from years ago and I’m curious what it’s like in 2016-2017 to do this type of work. Is it as bad as it was in 2010 and 2005 when the other Brownstoner forum questions came up?

Is there anything I can do to ‘get a sense’ of things, i.e. something to dig up historically with regards to my house to inform what how the DOB might see it? There’s nothing online at all (no I-Card, and only mention of alterations in 1938).

soundhoner

in General Discussion 7 years and 11 months ago

8

Please log in, in order to post replies!

8 replies

Newest Oldest

soundhoner | 7 years and 11 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4927 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4915 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "185056"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B.MX0wo9RmF5R6Z7AhcVRbEkIHWysR0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(16) "okadat@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 13:28:03"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(185056)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Thanks, resident2!

resident2 | 7 years and 11 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4926 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4925 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "181002"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "resident2"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BYKCrEpDU34.3RJghRPk8/Xp1XpCve/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(9) "resident2"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "Jamanda1255@Yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:07:33"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(9) "resident2"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(181002)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

In order to get a new certificate of occupancy for a three family for a house that is now a two family, you have to comply with a whole set of fire codes and building codes that are not required for a two family. And the codes today are much stricter than they were only a few years ago.
You will need at bare minimum a full sprinkler system, fire rated entrance doors and stair way and a whole lot of electrical systems, fire-stops in vents etc.
The bottom line is the cost of building department approvals, the cost of actual construction, inspections… time etc. And then your Real Estate taxes will be increased dramatically based on all your “improvements” and change of use.
You will never see a return on your investment and in the process probably actually De-valued it, depending on what location you are in, but higher re-sale prices are where an owner occupant will want to live and higher value owners do not want to live with tenants. They are busy making their money outside their house, they do not want to come home to another job.
As for your second question about nee ding a C of O for two family. NO, if you are using an Architect that understands old code.
Why is not having a C of O better in many peoples opinion?, because it does not spell out, which part is the second apartment, where all the rooms are etc. It can be more flexible.
And the City does not raise your Real Estate taxes.
Yes, a strange phenomenon, the City penalizes you for improving your property.

soundhoner | 7 years and 11 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4915 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4922 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "185056"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B.MX0wo9RmF5R6Z7AhcVRbEkIHWysR0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(16) "okadat@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 13:28:03"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(185056)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

This was obviously the wrong place for this question in 2017.

Thanks anyway.

SCasalino | 7 years and 11 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4927 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4928 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "43840"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "SCasalino"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BHctNNEcPvnCC9KvtaB0VOZDbg8CVh."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(9) "scasalino"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "scasalino@yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(51) "http://bstoner.wpengine.com/forums/users/scasalino/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 13:34:05"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(9) "SCasalino"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(43840)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

let sleeping dogs lie.

soundhoner | 7 years and 11 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4922 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4926 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "185056"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B.MX0wo9RmF5R6Z7AhcVRbEkIHWysR0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(16) "okadat@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 13:28:03"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(185056)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

It’s that cut and dry? I’m curious as to reasoning here.

mozeeatupu | 7 years and 11 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4915 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4929 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "176749"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "mozeeatupu"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BHO3bQekVGtCrXmPMzpkzkalt5eAQl/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "mozeeatupu"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(17) "grandzu@yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(25) "/forums/users/mozeeatupu/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:25:47"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(10) "mozeeatupu"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(176749)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

It’ll be tough getting an upsize c of o and not enough upside.
If you want a 3 fam, you should’ve bought a 3 fam.

soundhoner | 7 years and 11 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4926 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4927 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "185056"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B.MX0wo9RmF5R6Z7AhcVRbEkIHWysR0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(16) "okadat@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 13:28:03"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(185056)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Can you elaborate? Won’t they make me get a CO anyway if I do any significant alteration work even if it’s not occupancy-related? or is that a non-issue?

Also, what’s lucky about not having one at all?

thanks

daveinbedstuy | 7 years and 11 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4922 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4930 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(4) "3864"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "daveinbedstuy"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BtJYyObAQmff2MQp.qFP7/kmwU1bBZ1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "daveinbedstuy"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "djl135e54@yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(55) "http://bstoner.wpengine.com/forums/users/daveinbedstuy/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:23:53"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(13) "daveinbedstuy"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(3864)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Consider yourself lucky that you have a two family with no C of O and leave it at that.