Tankless water heater

drop me a line at errol832000@hotmail.com since high efficiency installations are my specialty… With HE units its all about venting and in the case of Rinnai, indirect drainage

eman134

in General Discussion 6 years and 9 months ago

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mrsbereket | 6 years and 7 months ago

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“Keep in mind most tankless water heaters won’t be able to provide “instant” hot water.” Doesn’t thins basically depend on how much pipe you have between your heater and your shower? I have a gas-fired tankless heat/hot water heater on the 2nd floor direct vented through the roof, and the delay in getting hot water is really just because we took the hot water down to the basement to connect to the distribution approximately where the old boiler in the basement was tied in, just to avoid repiping the whole building. Even then, the wait for the water is minimal.

solehappy | 6 years and 7 months ago

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make sure you have proper ability to vent this

Guest User | 6 years and 7 months ago

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I have a rinnai tankless HWH that I installed on my main home. For the vast majority of people it will not save you much. The payback is about 20 years. It is because most the energy goes into heating the water, not maintain the heat in an insulated container. Also with a tankless you have to be aware of a ‘cold sandwich’ Example I take a shower, the heater senses the flow of hot water and heats it. When I am done the water is not heated but hot water remains in the pipes. Next my wife takes a shower. She gets instantaneous hot water since it is already in the pipes. There is a delay while the tankless senses the flow of water. She gets a hot -COLD- Hot shower. There are a couple ways to avoid this but you need to be aware of it or deal with it.

I knew all of this before I installed mine, so why did I do it? First I did it myself so the cost was not dramatically more to install, second I replaced two heaters. Therefore I avoided the cost of keeping 100 gallons (2 tanks) hot. The savings tipped the scale in favor of tankless. Also you might need the space savings that tankless affords. Here is another idea to save heating costs with patio heaters, I’ll leave a link to the review that helped me when I choosing https://patiotip.com/best-patio-heater
Hope this helps! Good Luck!

Guest User | 6 years and 7 months ago

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HVAC engineer here. Keep in mind most tankless water heaters won’t be able to provide “instant” hot water. So if you like to just hop in the shower right away it’s not for you. However, you won’t “run out” of hot water either. It’s more of a personal usage question, there’s very little “payback” or cost analysis that plays into it.

[best electric wall heaters](https://flipboard.com/@maxgoodz/top-20-best-electric-wall-heaters-review-2019-vmg47jjly)

resident2 | 6 years and 7 months ago

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I have had many over the years, still have them in my 3 family house with solar panels. Work just fine.
True non of us have huge families, we are not taking 6 showers at once. But we do not have problems with running the washing machine while taking a shower….

Master Plvmber | 6 years and 8 months ago

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“Electric hot water on demand heaters do not make carbon monoxide, do not need venting and work very well.”

Clearly you’ve never had one in your home.

“But plumbers do not make much money from them.”

If someone were to contract my company to install this inferior, misapplied appliance in their home, I’d make the same profit percentage as if the unit used gas.

eman134 | 6 years and 8 months ago

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in response to resident2 …electric on demand hw heaters often need 150-300amps electric service which most brooklyn brownstones lack
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stiebel-Eltron-Tempra-36-Self-Modulating-36-kW-7-03-GPM-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-Tempra-36/204091797

nyc_sport | 6 years and 8 months ago

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An electric on demand hot water heater that has the capacity to feed multiple simultaneous draws (i.e., bathrooms, dishwasher, washer) typically requires 120 to 150 amps of electric service (i.e., three breakers, 40-50 amps each). They often require 6 or 8 gauge wire. Just as John said about the gas version, they are not a simple substitution, and likely are unsuitable or impractical for many 100 year old buildings that lack 300 amp electric service.

resident2 | 6 years and 8 months ago

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Electric hot water on demand heaters do not make carbon monoxide, do not need venting and work very well. But plumbers do not make much money from them.

randolph | 6 years and 8 months ago

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if there were a brownstoner forum comment hall of fame, that ^^^^ answer from Master Plvmber would certainly get inducted!

Master Plvmber | 6 years and 8 months ago

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Paloma, Bosch, Rinnai, Takagi…there are lots of tankless, or instantaneous, water heaters out there these days. They do a great job and lots of homes in Europe use them.

Here in America, though, they present some problems.

The carbon monoxide-filled exhaust is expelled by a fan out its flue pipe which, by most building codes and depending on the unit, must terminate anywhere from one to ten feet away from any building opening such as a door or window. That means drilling a 3″ hole in the side of your home.

The units themselves use a lot of gas all at once. A typical whole-house unit burns around 200,000 BTUs per hour. Compared to your 50-gallon gas-fired, tank-type water heater, which burns around 50,000 BTUs per hour, that’s a lot of fuel.

What that means is a tankless water heater requires a much larger gas pipe, and meter, than your tank type may be using. And because it burns so much more fuel, it also needs a lot more fresh air for combustion. This adds to their considerable installation cost as very often a large dedicated gas pipe from the meter to the unit is required and a fresh air duct will have to come from outside. That’s another 3″ hole in the side of the house.

If your lifestyle is such that you’re frequently using hot water throughout the day, keep in mind that your tankless heater will be on, probably burning 200,000 BTUs per hour for all of that time. The tank-type will chug along slowly burning its 50,000 BTUs a few times per day and store the water for when you need it.

Their high efficiency ratings stem from the fact that the unit does not run to simply maintain a constant temperature the way a tank type unit does. They are not inherently “efficient” in the way you may want to think they are. To understand this better, you need to know the difference between combustion efficiency (how much of the burning fuel directly translates into available hot water during actual usage) and seasonal efficiency (an estimate comparing fuel usage to hot water usage over an assumed variety of conditions over time).

Most of what we hear about a tankless water heater’s high efficiency has to do with its “seasonal” ratings and is best realized when installed for someone who doesn’t turn on their hot water very often for long periods of time. If the heater sits there dormant all day long not turning on until someone comes home from work, does some dishes and takes a shower, that would the perfect application, and real fuel savings might be gained.

Looking at practical usage, they claim to give 6 gallons or more per minute of endless hot water but if you look at the literature included with most any common unit, they sort of redefine “hot water”.

Consider these numbers:
90° F rise / 3.2 gpm

77° F rise / 3.7 gpm

65° F rise / 4.5 gpm

55° F rise / 5.2 gpm

45° F rise / 6.4 gpm

Rise is the amount the water temperature will be raised from the inlet of the heater to the outlet of the heater. That means that a 6.4-gallon unit will give you an endless supply of water raised 45 degrees from the temperature being supplied to the unit at a rate of 6.4 gallons per minute.

So, during the winter months in our part of the country when the temperature of our incoming water hovers around 40 degrees, you can expect 6.4 gallons per minute of 85-degree water.

That’s not hot at all.

Your showerhead might only pass 4.5 gallons per minute so, in this unit, we can expect a (check the chart) 65-degree rise. That will give us 110-degree water. That’s much better but there’s nothing left for another fixture to run simultaneously.

Of course, in the warmer months this is less of an issue but it’s not something to ignore.

This is a speech I’m well prepared to give as I get calls and emails for these units all the time. I am very happy to install them in a person’s home but always with this large disclaimer:

They simply don’t provide hot water the way we Americans are used to having it.

After a newly installed unit goes in I sometimes still get the call: “It’s not working!”

But it is working. Just turning on a faucet may not be enough to turn the unit on. They are activated by an internal device called a flow switch that senses water flow through the system (you turned on a faucet) and then turns on the exhaust fan, an ignitor, then the flame, then you start to get hot water. That flow switch needs to sense a minimum amount of moving water, usually 0.6 gallons, to get the process started. A trickle of water to wash your kid’s hands or to wet a facecloth may not be enough to activate the unit and that process may seem like an eternity to some when standing at the sink. You may need to turn the faucet on for stronger flow to get hot water. Is that a waste of water? Probably. At least sometimes.

Many professionals in the plumbing, heating and HVAC industry are now finding that a combination of tankless and tank water heaters work best to buffer the erratic behaviors of the tankless alone. When installation costs keep climbing, you can’t look for payback anytime soon.

As a professional plumber, owner of a mechanical consulting company, and partner at Gateway Plumbing and Heating, licensed by the Department of Buildings, and a person dedicated to understanding and embracing new technology in my field, I can say officially that I like tankless water heaters.

What I don’t like is how they’ve been presented to the public, showcased on DIY television shows and sold in large retail home centers with such an abundance of misleading, purely positive information. They are very sophisticated, fuel-burning appliances that require some thought before they are selected, bought, installed or repaired and just like all mechanical equipment, are simply not suitable for every home and every person.

You are right to ask questions before diving in.

Perhaps a good first step in the right direction is to question using the terms “efficient” and “endless shower” in the same conversation.

John Cataneo, LMP
www.72fLLC.com

SoSlope | 6 years and 8 months ago

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@Master Plvmber: can you tell us more about why this is the case? I have seen houses with them installed and had a plumber suggest we consider it (we declined for other reasons).

resident2 | 6 years and 8 months ago

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There are some very good electric water on demand hot water heaters. The better ones are European & Scandinavian where they have been using them much longer than here.
Add solar panels & presto!

Master Plvmber | 6 years and 8 months ago

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If you live in an attached home in Brooklyn, our anywhere in NYC, then you probably won’t be able to vent it legally. That’s why they’re not commonly installed in the city. www.72fLLC.com

Guest User | 6 years and 8 months ago

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I am looking for tankless water heater for my new house so please me the best one.

Master Plvmber | 6 years and 9 months ago

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Hybrid heaters often require some additional consideration because of the changes in ambient temperatures they create.

eman134 | 6 years and 9 months ago

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Also Rinnai now has a line of hybrid water heaters, basically an HE heater with a storage tank which addresses some of the issues in MPs article…however they do not come cheaply…you would have to figure out payback over time to see if it makes financial sense
https://www.build.com/rinnai-rh180p/s1193997?uid=2860347&source=gg-gba-pla_2860347!c1017459266!a50462053179!dc!ng&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy86Uvp-E3AIVCzppCh2GpQ9LEAQYASABEgIv5_D_BwE

eman134 | 6 years and 9 months ago

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Remember that there is also the option of installing an indirect hot wter heater run off of your boiler, be it hydronic or steam

Master Plvmber | 6 years and 9 months ago

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Here’s some info I put together on the subject which became part of the permanent literature library on HeatingHelp.com and also a picked up and distributed by a national wholesaler:
https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/tankless-water-heaters/