Talk me off the ledge?

I just got the updated estimate from our (wonderful) contractor after we’d added a ton of scope (some necessary structural stuff, some not), and, frankly, it’s now way more money than we want to spend on this renovation.

Would any of you here who have experience doing your own renovations and making these hard trade-offs be open to sitting down with me and walking through this estimate to figure out where to best cut it down? I am out of my depth. In exchange for your time and wisdom, I will pay for lunch at the restaurant of your choosing. Haaaalp.

bbrc

in General Discussion 5 years and 9 months ago

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hkapstein | 5 years and 9 months ago

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Getting back on track, I wanted to address the original question. My advice is do not stretch your budget at the begining of the project. There are two things that you can bet will happen. First, there will be some surprises that you need to address that you didn’t expect. I’m sure you know that. But second, there will be opportunities to do things you didn’t know about, that you’ll only get one shot at. That’s why brooklynreno says to focus on what’s behind thewalls. For example, let’s say you discover that you can reroute some plumbing to get hot water to your upstairs in half the time. It’s not very expensive, and once you finish the walls it won’t be practical to do it. But if you’re over budget from day one, you’ll have a tough time going up from there. On the other hand, if you don’t like your countertops, you can change those out in 5 years pretty easily.

If you want nice things without a crazy budget, I would say there is another way. You can save a lot of money by doing your own legwork on certain things. Imagine you’re a GC. The customer asks you to reproduce a parquet floor pattern to match the original from another room. Well you probably don’t really know how much that’s going to cost, so maybe you say you’ll do it for 40k, and figure you can’t lose money. But if the customer calls someone who actually does that, maybe it can be done for a fraction of that. But it’s a lot of work to know the prices, and how to do stuff.

The truth is, no one can get every feature they want. If you raise the budget, it just opens the door for even more expensive options, so you do have to make some compromises.

hkapstein | 5 years and 9 months ago

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You are missing something. You don’t just “get a permit”. You need to file plans, and that means paying an architect. But once the plans are filed you must comply with the plans, and withstand a variety of inspections. For example, if you have cement as part of you job, you have to file a whole bunch of paperwork related to that. Some engineer has to confirm the type of some cement is right, and then another engineer has to inspect it. All these people have to pay insurance etc, and that rolls down to you. If you just do the cement without this, you might get away with it, or the inspectors could come and give you violations. It’s almost impossible to have all the right paperwork, it would be like driving 500 miles without breaking a traffic law. ie, never go over the speed limit, signal every turn, if the road is blocked by a double parked car, you can’t cross a double yellow line, full stop at every stop sign.

With permits, if you decide that a closet should be made 15 inches larger so the wall can line up with a pipe, well you’re gonna need to file an post approval amendment. PAA = Pay architect, expeditor, and DOB. Sure you can do it and file post hoc, but if it doesn’t get approved, you’ll have to redo the work. You’ll need to get all your plumbing inspected, which means a lot of money saving options won’t be available to you. Did the last plumber wet vent your stack? Is your storm and black water system combined? Get ready for a lot of new and expensive, and probably needless plumbing work to comply with codes. How about fire separations, are they all correct? Do you need sprinklers to get your plans approved? They’re not cheap. Landmarks is a treat to deal with. Your contractor needs to make sure every worker has osha cards and wears a hardhat and knows a secret handshake. You may need to put in unpractical levels of insulation to meet energycode standards. The list goes on and on.

I have spent hours researching what plumbing configurations are acceptable. When the going gets tough, the plumber will pass the buck to the architect to spec the plumbing, but most architects don’t know much about plumbing. Also most inspectors and plan examiners don’t know much about it either, so it’s kind of a crapshoot what will pass inspection, and usually the most conservative choice is the most expensive. A surprising number of plumbers and architects I spoke to were not aware that a toilet can be run on a 3 inch drain. But a 3 inch drain can fit in a 2×4 wall, and a 4 inch drain cannot, so this this can really impact how difficult it would be to add a powder room somewhere, or reroute existing plumbing.

The permit will make your taxes go up, and DOB with a record of the job will come to visit to check various paperwork, osha cards, and hardhats and other things, and they will issue large fines for non-compliance. Also, pulling the permit requires a certain amount of cost and overhead for the contractor, so they will surely charge more.

bbrc

in General Discussion 5 years and 9 months ago

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@bklynreno – Taking pictures inside the walls… Brilliant! As far as things to “save for later,” where would you stand on things like replacing windows, striping paint off molding, and refinishing floors? These are messy jobs that are obviously better to do when you’re not living in the house, but they aren’t essential to do before the walls are sealed up, and can be quite pricey. Can they be left as things you do over the years?

@ChrisPetri – Regarding the permits, we are not even remotely considering doing work without a permit. In any case, how would this save you money? Is it just the expediter and filing fee? That seems nominal in the grand scheme of things, but maybe I am missing something?

lkrshacmzcy | 5 years and 9 months ago

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We submit our own permits in most circumstances but if we are over busy or I think we will run into complications (scope, client, etc.) we will use the expeditor. Our owner is close with one company and they know their stuff; plus they have good connections when things get sticky.
We will always use an expeditor for the ConEd portal though. No one in the office has the patience for that mess.

sixyearsandcounting | 5 years and 9 months ago

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Chris Petri do you use an expeditor even if you submit permits through the DOB NOW system?

hkapstein | 5 years and 9 months ago

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You’re not wrong, the city is going crazy. But they will give you a violation for something even if you have a permit. I keep having to go to court to get them dismissed, but that’s not free either. Since the permit is open, they like to come by to collect their protection money.

lkrshacmzcy | 5 years and 9 months ago

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I am not saying it does or it does not here; I just know that if the work he/she chooses requires a permit: Pull the Permit. The thought of not pulling it to save money is slowly being contradicted in action; the city is out for blood lately. Between the last post and this one I had a Licensed Master Plumber friend call and tell me he got two violations today from Marshal visits and one was just installing a Waste Disposal.
If I’m ever on the fence with a permit being needed I go to an Expeditor. I’m close with one and even though I don’t use them they know the letter of the law to a fine point.

hkapstein | 5 years and 9 months ago

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Chris, do you think he can do this with an LAA?

lkrshacmzcy | 5 years and 9 months ago

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In a loud voice: DO NOT SKIP ON THE PERMITS IF YOU PERFORM WORK THAT REQUIRES THEM!
For ten years I saw one Marshal checking on residential jobsites (houses that are obviously completing a project from a street view) but this year alone I have had seven visits from a Marshal to check; even today for a simple Hot Water Heater. The fine for it would push you way out of your budget including adding a headache.
For those on here pushing against permits: a very prominent downtown Catholic Church backed out of our proposal for a Boiler Replacement because of the down time that permits would cause; they replaced it without a permit. The Diocese of Brooklyn now has an open case of WOP after a Marshal showed up; the city is showing no mercy on collecting their money lately.
Note: Not here to argue…again.

Guest User | 5 years and 9 months ago

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I do a lot of renovations and I’m happy to talk. PM me.

SoSlope | 5 years and 9 months ago

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The suggestion to take lots of photos before the walls are closed is a good one. I would add: take video as well.

Guest User | 5 years and 9 months ago

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I would cut anything that does not require opening walls, a licenses or DOB sign off to do like plumbing, electrical and structural.

Did you already start the reno? If you are doing any new heating there are a few people on the forum that seem to be experts, licensed and own a company. You might want to hire them to review the plan/scope.

Just an FYI. A HVAC air-conditioning person was recommend a few times on the forum. I passed to neighbor. They were not impressed.

Take lots of photos of the place before the walls are closed. In case there are issues later you have an idea what is behind the wall. Get receipts for big purchases like furnace, windows etc. In case you have need to call the company for a warranty or issue later.

Good luck!