Signed contract or proposal?

Our co-op is doing a renovation/upgrade of the Super’s apartment. The job is expected to be an 8 week, ~$100,000 job. Is it typical to sign the one page proposal/bid description or to write a contract?

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in General Discussion 1 year and 10 months ago

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cate | 1 year and 9 months ago

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$100,000 is a lot for an eight-week upgrade of a super’s apartment. What is being done? Also the contractor must be licensed and must use licensed plumber and electrican subs, who must file. If I were spending this much money on a project, I would be sure to involve an appropriate (the right) architect and engineer.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 9 months ago

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I did some reading on this last night. NYS is one of six states that if a contractor does not have a contract, the contractor can not put a mechanic’s lien on the property (in other states a verbal will work). i am sure the links that lurker posted explain what must be in a contract and the absence of some of those can invalidate a contract. of course, a lawyer must be consulted on this to be sure a contract will be invalidated but if contractors want to write lousy contracts that do not protect themselves, i say have at it but you still have to protect yourself with other specific details:

In addition to the materials and referencing industry standards (which can include architectural standards from the AIA or standards from organizations like the National Hardwood Floor Manufacturer’s Association), if you have drawings and related schedules, you will want to be sure they reference those in the contract.

Also this: put in the contract that you must be given all instructions and data sheets pertaining to all products or they will not be paid at the end of the j ob (they hate when i write that in). there are times that the contractor does not wish to turn this stuff over to the homeowner and that is when they know they are doing things wrong. I hate to say this, but in 2023 it is your job to read this stuff and make sure that they are using compatible products and following dry times on adhesives and finishes (they rush latex paint recoat times as if the instructions on the cans mean nothing; they use masonite board for glue down wood floors when the manufacturer’s specify a specific underlay plywood). you have to check everything and protect your organization. (by the way, i get called a lot to repair things other contractors have screwed up. i often ask what products were used on the job and people say “i do not know”; that is unacceptable).

i had a contractor ask me to help him write a contract for a roofing job a couple months back. he gave me some notes and he mentioned “plywood” to replace rotten or damaged roof deck. i asked him “what kind of plywood? you must specify the type”. He replied “osb”. I had to tell him that OSB is NOT plywood and he cannot write plywood in the contract. You have to be sure things are spec’d and you have to check all materials coming on your site and take pictures.

I hope you will take what lurker said and prepare a contract but i also hope you will include what i am suggesting. And please, come back on here and tell us how the contractor reacts when you put your detailed contract in front of him to sign. if he scoffs at it, it means his intent was to deliver less than a professional job from the get go.

cate | 1 year and 10 months ago

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My contracts often say “Work will start on or around x date and be completed on or around x date.” The payment schedule should state clearly that payment of x amount will be made after x amount of the job is completed. Never advance money, only pay after the work is done. (For a very big job once we did advance money to reserve the contractor almost a year in advance, and sometimes we have paid for materials. For the big job we were working with an architect and a well-established contractor and it turned out fine.)

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 10 months ago

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So there are certain things that must be included in a contract in nyc and if they are not, if you as the customer fail to pay, the contractor’s claim will have no merit and will fail from the get go. Lurker’s links probably allude to some of these. What i get more concerned about is the materials only because as a contractor, i never want to be in a situation where i might be in court anyway and have to worry about those other details. Honest people should never have a problem. But what i would look for is a detailed list of materials and name brands and then i might check that some of these might be compatible where they are being used and provisions must be made for changes. You want justifiable changes in writing.

Also, payment schedules, not on dates but on progress. And these must be written in detail.

You are not going to have a manager on your team so that means it is you. In the old days, you could hire a contractor who would tell you what is right and how it should be done and he staked his career on it. Them days are gone. You are now th e construction super and it is your job to photograph every lable of every item that come on to that site and if something is off, you have to say it.

Lurker is right to get insurance certs. But a contract missing many other details will fail in court if you fail to pay. They can’t sue you. That is why in commercial we got a schedule of materials with a description and handed them a check. If they don’t deliver, they don’t get paid. Without a valid contract, they can’t sue. The contract protects the contractor if you fail to pay. Not the other way around. It is not your job to get it right, it is their job to get it right.

Lurker | 1 year and 10 months ago

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absolutely get a contract, especially for a 6 figure sum like that. You can find a template and attach the estimate/ proposal as part of it.
The gist is you would want to have a bullet point of every type of job being done and what done actually means, a schedule for payment,. plus proof of insurance and your building as additionally insured etc etc.
If you don’t have a contract, you don’t have any fallback unless you happen to hire a GC who is a unicorn. If the apartment fails inspection, or is done wrong or whatever, you need to have something to show that the GC agreed to do it a specific way.
There’s a great checklist here of what the GC’s responsibilities are. They will almost certainly ask for a huge upfront payment which is not legal, for instance.

https://ag.ny.gov/home-improvement-fact-sheet
https://www.nyc.gov/assets/dca/downloads/pdf/businesses/Home-Improvement-Contractor-Contractual-Compliance.pdf

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 10 months ago

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and make sure the contract says this in it:

All local codes and laws will be followed;

All manufacturer’s instructions and industry standards will be followed unless there is a valid reason to deviate from them and such reason is stated to the customer in writing and approved by the customer in writing.

with respect to manufacturer’s directions and industry standards, in these old buildings we sometimes have to deviate from the directions. when this happens, we should find an alternative product (which often means more expensive) but when that can not be done, professionals will call the manufacturer’s technical support line and speak to someone on their team about the risks, pros and cons of doing something off label. sometimes they will say it is ok but be aware that ……can occur. other times they will recommend other processes or products to use in conjunction with going off label. and other times they will say they “have never tested their product” in such a scenario or they will flat out say do not try it.

a lot of paints and adhesives fail because pe ople use them contrary to instructions leaving a homeowner to wonder what happen six months later. other products fail because they are used in situations with too much moisture. the list goes on…. and much of this can be prevented. you need the onus to be on the contractor to do the right thing. you are paying someone to be an expert in what they do for a living and you are not a babysitter.

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 10 months ago

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we used to sign proposals all the time for smaller jobs, in commercial buildings where we really knew the contractors. All the time – but we were also building professionals dealing with contractors who we had long relationships with and they knew that if they did anything wrong or tried to BS us, they would get tossed off the job and never be called back. also, never for jobs this pricey.

Residential contracts require a bit more with specific details and schedules that are designed to protect the contractor and customer alike. in short, it will depend on how detailed the proposal is-

if you want to black out the personal details on the proposal and email it to me, i will take a glance at it and tell you what i think via email. i might write back with a list of questions to ask or demands to have put in the contract.

Steve
Brownstone Home Inspection LLC
brownstonehomeinspection.com