Schnall Questions

We completed our alt-2 Directive 14 job a while ago, but mainly because of some slow inspections we were not able to close out the job before Schnall lost his license. My understanding is that for all Directive 14 jobs, the only option is to hire a new engineer to supersede on the job, which amounts to paying twice for the same service.

1) Has anyone been able to close a Directive 14 job without superseding or spending the same amount that you paid Schnall to hire a new engineer? We heard some rumors that the Department will make some hardship exceptions but we don’t know the process.

2) Relatedly, has anyone had a good experience with an engineer/architect that you’ve hired to supersede Schanll? I’ve seen some names but looking for more. Our job was relatively modest.

2) Is there any recourse to recover any of this money? I understand why the city wouldn’t want someone signing off on jobs who submitted applications with fraudulent information, but it seems fundamentally unfair that homeowners who haven’t done anything wrong should bear the whole financial bur den (thousands of dollars) of hiring a new engineer when the city hasn’t identified any problems with our application. There’s a Dep’t of Consumer Affairs Home Improvement Trust Fund that reimburses homeowners who are scammed by licensed contractors who skip town or go out of business, but I don’t think that would apply here. Has anyone looked into complaining to the Department of Consumer Affairs or the (possibly) Public Advocate’s office? There are many more pressing issues in this city, but at the end of the day I haven’t done anything wrong, it’s a substantial amount of money, and almost three hundred jobs were affected.

wtrowhouse

in General Discussion 7 years and 6 months ago

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BKALLDAY | 7 years and 5 months ago

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Loved Scott. He expedited my reno just fine. He may have been slipping here and there in later years but I hope he prevails the DOB personnel are awful and lazy.

emmajacob | 7 years and 5 months ago

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I haven’t read the comments above, but we had an Alt-2 Directive 14, and SS did our special inspection for underpinning. We got a hardship exception, since we had paid our total invoice to him by the time his privileges were revoked. Go to DOB Commissioner’s office and his assistants should be able to tell you how to go about that process.

jimhillra | 7 years and 6 months ago

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Funny, I don’t recall sending a proposal to anyone named Urbandad. 😉 Please call me at (646) 309-7259 sometime to catch up and let me know how it all went. I’d be very curious as to how we ended up that much higher. I’m not surprised that we were higher than an engineer, especially Scott, as they typically don’t do the kind of design work we do.

We’ve been moving more towards the full scope projects wherein we get to do a lot more design, and selecting as many of the finishes, fixtures, etc before the job goes into construction. We’ve found that this level of involvement from our office in the beginning of the job ends up paying for itself later, as it avoids delays during construction when the client is hit with questions from the contractor that need to answered on the spot or cause delays.

We’ve also found that the more detailed projects really demand a heavier site presence. Being able to see the site on a weekly basis, sometimes even more, has had a huge impact on how a job runs. Again, it adds to the budget up front, but greatly reduces the mistakes that can happen on site, which in the end means a smoother job with fewer extras and fewer delays, which in the end saves the client money.

hkapstein | 7 years and 6 months ago

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Hmm interesting, thanks for the thoughtful response Jim. If anyone has success with this, please post, I’d like to update the other thread. I am a little skeptical though because they would not allow full review A1 jobs to be signed off without superseding until the court ordered them to, and also because I was told that I had to supersede by a deputy commissioner. However why should we expect DOB to be logical or consistent about this? They do release the administrative hold when you file a new TR1 and TR8, so maybe there is no other mechanism to prevent you from closing the job after that. However my new PE became the architect of record as soon as these forms were accepted, so perhaps if he did not file the amendment he would have become responsible for directive 14 compliance on Scott’s plans. I suppose that would not be too different than if he had filed a PAA with Scott’s original drawings. This could save a few thousand dollars if the original drawings were code compliant, no amendments were needed due to construction changes, and the new architect wants to certif y that.

I would think DOB would need an architect in good standing to certify code and zoning, otherwise why even bother to give us the stop work order? We could have just continued construction and signed off with a third party inspection agency when inspections were needed. But then, I keep forgetting, it doesn’t have to make sense!

Anyway thanks Jim for all your contributions to the forum. I’ve spend time here just researching your posts to learn about the interpretation of various rules. I really wanted to work with you on my project, but somehow your proposal came out around 10 times the highest of the other three architects I talked to, and would have constituted 75% of my construction budget. However after we spoke, I figured out a pretty cool(and totally legitimate) way the job could be filed as an A2 instead of an A1 which saved a lot of work and money, so perhaps I should have done my homework before we spoke. Would love to talk to you about my next project if you’re interested, but I realize you might not have room in your schedule for smaller jobs or patience for armchair expediters who spend too much time on Brownstoner. Would be neat if you did though.

jimhillra | 7 years and 6 months ago

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I haven’t had the “opportunity” to do exactly that just yet. I used to use Scott for my special inspections, so I recently got registered as a special inspector so I can supersede him as the inspector on my own jobs, and I have just superseded him as the design applicant on one of his jobs that needed a plan amendment for changes anyway.

However, I did just have a conversation with another expediter, in which he described the process for signing off the job without superseding the original applicant. On most smaller jobs, those Scott typically filed, signoff forms typically consist of TR1, TR8, EN2, PW3, and PW7. The first three can be signed by the special inspector. The PW3 is signed by the owner, and does not need the architect/engineer signature at the end of the job. And the PW7 can be the applicant, owner, or expediter.

hkapstein | 7 years and 6 months ago

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Jim, this is a good point, and I mentioned this in my previous post on unschalling a project. I know under normal you could follow the procedure you describe and supersede the inspections. However aside from the issue of whether a new inspection agency/architect would want to supersede Scott’s plans as-is, will DOB actually let you sign off the job if you don’t file an amended plan? The letter they sent specifically says that amended plans must be filed. Have you been able to close a job without amending?

jimhillra | 7 years and 6 months ago

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One more note about the Directive 14’s. Scott’s actual license was not revoked, at least not by the last time I spoke with him about his situation. As far as I know, he is actually still a state licensed engineer. The DOB revoked his ability to file new jobs and to certify any inspections. The directive 14 is a Special Inspection item on the TR1 form used to certify all special inspections. As such, he cannot sign off on the inspection. It is possible to sign off the job just by having another engineer or architect supersede the special inspections, and then work with the DOB to sign off the application without Scott’s involvement.

hkapstein | 7 years and 6 months ago

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Hi wt, I’m no lawyer, but I couldn’t agree more with what you’re saying. However, the Rules of the City of New York say that that the DOB can refuse to accept filings from someone who has filed false statements in the past. Whether this was applied arbitrarily is what will be litigated in Scott’s Article 78 proceeding. The reason Directive 14 jobs are excluded is because they are considered limited review jobs. The architect represented that the job meets zoning and construction code requirements, so a less rigorous plan exam is done by the city examiner. This is the typical procedure for Alt-2 jobs. However in a non-limited review job, the architect is not responsible for zoning and code compliance, but rather the department/examiner is. The argument could be made(not by me) that it doesn’t matter if Scott has a pattern of false statements because the examiners carefully checked and approved all of these full review plans.

I agree with your point that if Scott did nothing wrong on your job, it is unfair that you should be penalized. However, there’s a lot of grey are a in this process and I’ll bet DOB can find something they think is wrong with your filing if they look close enough. If you want to fight City Hall you could try to request an inspection to close the job. When they refuse you could begin an Article 78 proceeding for judicial review of the DOB decision and then various appeals would be available from there. I doubt this will lead to an outcome you’re happy with.

Another option, if you wanted to explore a hardship case(might be challenging for a lawyer renovating a brownstone, but I don’t know your situation), you could make a per11 appointment and go talk to the borough commissioner. I have done this twice for different reasons. One time it took 6 months to get the appointment, and the other time it took 2 weeks. If you try this, I’d encourage you to post the response. If there’s an argument that works, I’m sure everyone reading this would love to hear about it.

I have one more idea to offer. PM me and I’ll tell you how much I paid to supersede. I think you’ll probably want to go this route. Good luck.

-Urbandad

wtrowhouse | 7 years and 6 months ago

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I have no interest in suing Schnall. It’s the city’s fault I have to pay $7000 plus to refile a clean job. I would understand if the city inspected all of his jobs and demanded the fraudulent ones to refile and fine them, but even as a lawyer I don’t understand how they can force a homeowner to eat these costs without adjudicating each individual case.

From what I’ve heard, the court order from last summer includes a safe harbor for near-complete jobs to be signed off, but it apparently arbitrarily excludes Directive 14 and self cert jobs. These people are screwed.

decodeddreams | 7 years and 6 months ago

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Meltzer/Costa http://www.meltzercosta.com/ should be able to fix the mess for you. They have in house architects, engineers and expeditors that are specifically proficient at dealing with DOB bureaucracy. I don’t know what they will charge you. Best of luck! Regards, Richard | Manhatta Architecture, P.C. http://www.manhatta.net

decodeddreams | 7 years and 6 months ago

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Meltzer/Costa http://www.meltzercosta.com/ should be able to fix the mess for you. They have in house architects, engineers and expeditors that are specifically proficient at dealing with DOB bureaucracy. I don’t know what they will charge you. Best of luck! Regards, Richard | Manhatta Architecture, P.C. http://www.manhatta.net

yudashasom | 7 years and 6 months ago

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Scott is broke. Don’t waste time or money suing because you’ll never get paid.

katdov | 7 years and 6 months ago

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I’m in the same boat as you. I met with the head examiner at the DOB, who, while proclaiming eagerness to close Schnall jobs, is one of those extremely thorough professionals who will not rest until all the t’s are crossed. I had thought I did nothing wrong, and still claim that from a moral standpoint, but apparently it was my job to oversee what Schnall was doing. I trusted him, this being my first such experience, and it came to light that he misfiled on all counts. So I did hire another architect and expediter and it’s costing me even more than Schnall because they are assuming someone else’s risk. And I can no longer find the plumber who did the job, nor can I get the plumber of record to move this along as have no leverage over him. It’s been an ongoing nightmare and I would be very keen to find out if there is any other recourse for Schnall’s victims. The DOB told me I have grounds to sue, but that will also cost money and I heard somewhere that Scott empt ied all company accounts and cannot be found. But yes, I would welcome any relief of this financial burden which is adding to tens of thousands.