Row house front yard--city property or ours?

According to the lot line on the survey, the front yard of our row house is city property. BUT there is a fence dividing the yard from the general sidewalk, and according to tax photos the fence has been there since at least the 1940s. Is this a case of adverse possession? We’re wondering because we’d like to build a stoop but worried about revocable consent fees.

Natasha

in General Discussion 6 years and 3 months ago

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SoSlope | 6 years and 3 months ago

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I agree with Fay’s suggestion of a survey. She is correct that adverse possession is real, but it is also very difficult for someone to capture your property in New York. For example, building a fence on your property is not enough. They generally need to build a structural element of a building on your property and keep it there unchallenged for 10 years. Moreover, they must believe in good faith that the land is theirs (i.e., you cannot intentionally take a neighbor’s property). Thus, even if the fence in your backyard is way off the property line–and has been for a very long time–it is highly unlikely that you have lost (or gained) any ownership of land.

Caveat: I am not an attorney, so if you have a real issue in this area, consult a real attorney.

israel | 6 years and 3 months ago

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If you own property it is in your best interest to have it surveyed asap at least once. Adverse possession is a thing and you can lose land people use, even if it’s yours.

israel | 6 years and 3 months ago

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If you own property it is in your best interest to have it surveyed asap at least once. Adverse possession is a thing and you can lose land people use, even if it’s yours.

AndrewPorter | 6 years and 3 months ago

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The building in 1940, courtesy the Municipal Archives:
[154-Henry-1940](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:g9mi:154henry1940.png.jpg)

AndrewPorter | 6 years and 3 months ago

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This is a photo of the building on the west side of Henry Street between Love Lane and Clark Street, just north of the CVS. I spoke to the people who live there—they’ve already moved in—and they’re awaiting approvals, and, I think, getting the money together to do the job.
BTW, this is the building where the architect initially wanted to use aluminum window frames, and Landmarks made them use wooden ones.

brikenny | 6 years and 3 months ago

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Once the city has claimed your land (or the fence, a few feet over the line, and wherever the original stoop ended) they will not give it back willingly. But… I applied to rebuild my stoop on a de-stooped house when the city owned the bottom 3 steps and the fence! But some conditions had to be met. First, the house must have originally had a stoop. Second, the new stoop had to be within the footprint of the original. And the third (and probably most important) I provided photos showing ALL of the other houses in my row still had their stoops. There is power in numbers! As long as my stoop didn’t extend further out than the others, and was still withing the fence-line (although the city owned where we all had our fences) they considered it grandfathered-in that I could have a stoop. So I got mine, and if you do a bit of research like that, you could probably get yours too. Good luck!

Natasha | 6 years and 3 months ago

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yes–ours is not in a landmark district, though there was originally a stoop, so maybe that would help our cause. But seems impossible to tell before actually going through with the whole project. 🙁

JeremyL | 6 years and 3 months ago

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The fixed $25 annual rate is for a stoop in a landmark district. There is a higher, formula-based rate for stoops outside landmark districts.

Also keep in mind the revocable consent has to be renewed every 10 years, when the city takes the opportunity to charge you another several hundred dollars in renewal and hearing costs.

jimhillra | 6 years and 3 months ago

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We did one where it was recreating a stoop in a landmark district, and another where it was a new, much more significant incursion. The agreement for the stoop costs $25/year, and the other is $3,000 for the first year and then increases $48 per year ($3000, $3048, $3096…) for the next ten years, after which the lease renews and the rates are subject to change at lease renewal.

I’m not exactly sure why the disparity. It may be the extent of work, or the fact that one is in a landmark district, or that one is a recreation whereas the other is new, or a combination of all of it.

Natasha | 6 years and 3 months ago

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Thanks all! Is it really only a couple hundred dollars rent per year? That’s the part I’m worried about, since it seems hard to be sure in advance what it will be.

jimhillra | 6 years and 3 months ago

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We’ve done a couple of revocable consent applications with the DOT, and in both cases, the process was very long, but in the end was approved. It’s actually faster if you’re in a landmark district because it skips some reviews. The city will require a deposit of about $5k in case they need to remove the stoop later, and it will cost a couple hundred dollars a year to “rent” the space from the city.

yudashasom | 6 years and 3 months ago

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The answer your question about adverse possession. The short answer is no, you can’t take city property.

Go through the proper procedure and build the stoop. It will add significant value to your property., but be prepared for the work itself to cost $30-40k minimum.

CarmenR | 6 years and 3 months ago

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basically all of the lots on our block and in our neighborhood are like this- 3ish feet of the front of our lot are technically city property but are all fenced to look like our property. We garden and enjoy our space and anticipate it being like this for many years, but we certainly don’t plan to try to enforce action against the city over it. It’s a nice perk!

mozeeatupu | 6 years and 3 months ago

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City owns but your responsibility

Natasha | 6 years and 3 months ago

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It’s confusing because three of the neighboring identical houses have stoops (and there was a stoop in the 1940s tax photo too). But I guess none of that is pertinent?

resident2 | 6 years and 3 months ago

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It belongs to the City.
It is not worth fighting or applying to build a stoop.

yudashasom | 6 years and 3 months ago

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City