Restoring coal burning fireplaces in 4 story townhouse
Hi everyone- seeking advice on what to do with the 8 fireplaces we have in our house. We have two parlor rooms per floor, each with its own fireplace up all 4 stories. Only 4 mantlepieces remain, no inserts, and the fireplace itself is only 12″ deep. We’ve thought about rumfordizing or potentially using a new insert. My real concern is how to reline a chimney that is this tall, serving this many floors. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Guest User | 5 years and 1 month ago
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restorationcontractor | 5 years and 1 month ago
Neogrec, I think you could possibly remove the damper and a portion of the smoke shelf as needed working from inside the hearth, add a stainless steel liner and transition to the hearth thus eliminating the need for the smoke shelf. You could also do this by opening a hole at the mantle level, this would also allow you to infill between the existing smoke box and new flue. (Image on the right below) I would also add a rooftop draft inducer as well.
I do have a wood stove at an upstate property, it is fun to use and easy to clean, but probably not aesthetically correct for a historic Brooklyn home.
NeoGrec | 5 years and 1 month ago
Thanks, Resto. I have been puzzling about our fireplace situation and I think you may have nailed it. I am loathe to open up the smoke chamber but, apart from installing a wood stove (which I don’t like aesthetically) , it may be the only solution.
restorationcontractor | 5 years and 1 month ago
NeoGrec, The firebrick at the back of the hearth should be enough to mitigate the heat transfer, and you have a fireback as well so I don’t think this area is creating the problem. Based on your description I think the issue must be in the smoke chamber. I would assume the temperature there would be quite high as well.
There should be a ledge behind the damper to prevent the smoke from recirculating back into the fireplace. The area behind this ledge would be the thinnest point between you and your neighbor and would typically be just parged common brick. If your wall is the same as your neighbors and getting so hot you could burn your hand it’s definitely not safe.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/48378/48378-h/images/fig_34.png
If this is the problem, it would only be repairable by opening up the smoke chamber area, providing sufficient masonry or a combination of masonry and rock wool to mitigate the heat, but then you would probably have to extend your chimn ey breast into the room as well to provide the extra depth you need.
A wood stove insert or freestanding woodstove that was ducted up your flue should work as well.
NeoGrec | 5 years and 1 month ago
Resto: What we’ve learned about our otherwise very sturdy house is that the party wall is only one course thick. Hence the heat transfer. Other neighbors a few doors down (and who we have a good relationship with) have reported a wall so hot — from their neighbor’s fireplace — it scorched their fingers. That’s why we have taken the complaints so seriously. We have a cast iron fireback but I’m now so gun shy I’ve only used the fireplace twice since we bought the fireback. Our neighbor would never ever permit us to use a thermometer to check the temp. It’s his way or the highway. If we burn a fire when he’s home, he calls the FDNY. My comment about the smoke chamber may be inaccurate. Obviously that’s a cooler area than the firebox but, without the benefit of the latter’s firebricks, perhaps the transfer of heat is just as pronounced?
JohnHancock | 5 years and 1 month ago
Or call Roberto, iron worker and welder.
He works on gates and fences and is a nice guy.
(718) 290 3406
restorationcontractor | 5 years and 1 month ago
NeoGrec, sorry I assumed your issue was with smoke. To be clear the neighbor is complaining about the heat radiating through the wall? If that is the case, I would think a cast iron or steel fireback with a layer of rock wool behind it might help mitigate that problem.
If it’s in the smoke chamber that is not going to help though.
Are you using log rests? A shallower set of log rests could help also.
Adding a smaller flexible stainless steel liner, which then you might have to add a draft inducer might be a solution although unfortunate after all the work you had done.
Since you said the work was done 20 years ago I would assume you have not checked your neighbors side of the wall with an infrared thermometer while you have a fire going?
It seems strange that the wall should get hot on the other side through fire brick or even common brick. It should radiate some heat, but that would be normal if the wall was just warm on their side.
NeoGrec | 5 years and 1 month ago
Thanks, this is new info for me. But I may be misunderstanding because draft is not the problem. The issue is that the fire burns too hot in the fire box/smoke chamber and this is what makes our neighbor complain. Are you saying the fan would reduce the heat below by increasing the rate of exhaust? Wouldn’t that just result in a fiercer fire? We don’t have a great relationship with the neighbor but fire is one absolute we don’t want to mess around with. By the way, I don’t blame A&A at all for not knowing how thick our party wall was. They were great to work with and I chalked this one up to bad luck.
restorationcontractor | 5 years and 1 month ago
NeoGrec, sorry to hear you spent all that effort with no result. That is the problem with old buildings you don’t know what is inside the walls or how thick they are until you open them up.
If you install a flue mounted draft inducer fan at the roof level it should solve your problem, they are made for this. You said 20 years ago? these were available in 2000.
It’s relatively simple you need to run 110v to the roof and a switch leg down to your fireplace, you probably could go wireless now for the switch as well.
Did anyone advise you of this option?
NeoGrec | 5 years and 1 month ago
Not wishing to belabor the point but, in reply to restorationcontractor, we did EXACTLY what you suggest and it still wasn’t sufficient because the party wall was not as thick as expected. So, even with all that careful new construction (done in fact by A&A who are great but failed to diagnose the party wall issue), it was a complete waste of time and money (approx. $15k, 20 years ago!).
restorationcontractor | 5 years and 1 month ago
The only way to burn wood is to demolish the flues, reline with terracotta flue liners and construct new firebrick hearths. Very rarely is a flue large enough to add a flexible stainless steel liner as it reduces volume too much to draw properly. Even if that works you would most likely need to install a draft inducer at the roof on each flue.
Albert at A&A chimney who advertises on this site is a great guy to work with if you want to look into it, he has done various projects for us.
Gas can use a much smaller liner, but then you have all the piping to do.
NeoGrec | 5 years and 1 month ago
20 years ago, we rebuilt two fireplaces (new fireboxes, smoke chambers, terra-cotta flue linings et al) during our original renovation. With hindsight, it was an expensive error. When we burn a fire our neighbor goes ballistic because the party wall gets too hot so we’ve given up. Wood burns hot. Wish we had done gas instead. Too late now with increased city regs and cost of channeling in the walls to bury the gas pipes. Do due diligence and figure out how your chimneys were originally used (turns out ours were simply hot air vents: the entire mantel/fireplace structure was only decorative) and how thick the party walls are. But it’s not clear from your post if you’re talking about an attached brownstone in the city or a detached property upstate. If the latter, obviously you have more options. Also bear in mind it’s one chimney per fireplace, no matter how many floors your house has.
RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 5 years and 1 month ago
BTW, legally installing new gas pipes in NYC might be very difficult
RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 5 years and 1 month ago
Sorry again—cannel coal— no h
RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 5 years and 1 month ago
Sorry—channel coal—double n
RobertGMarvin
in General Discussion 5 years and 1 month ago
IF they were coal-burning they’d have used canel coal (soft coal) rather than charcoal. I don’t know about availability
cate | 5 years and 1 month ago
If you’re upstate and not in Brooklyn, gas may be the easiest route. The main challenge with wood burning is that the firebox has to be made much bigger. Depending on the mantel and surround, this could compromise the historic appearance of the fireplace. (In NYC, there is a law against adding a new wood burning fireplace but old ones are probably grandfathered in.) Also costs might be cheaper upstate.
Guest User | 5 years and 1 month ago
That’s very helpful, thank you Cate. Yes the chimneys were blocked off, and weren’t used for ducting or anything. Ideally we are interested in burning wood, but I will look into gas or alcohol inserts, and see if we can have an expert come in to look at it.
Guest User | 5 years and 1 month ago
Not totally certain Bob but an architect friend of ours mentioned that a lot of fireplaces in our city were coal burning, and the shallow depth supports that claim. There’s no evidence of gas lines in or around the chimneys but I will check again.
cate | 5 years and 1 month ago
The taller the chimney, the better the draw. Restoring to charcoal seems impractical, wood burning is possible but problematic for a variety of reasons, and gas is your best bet IMHO. Assuming the chimney(s) you want to use are free (not dedicated to heating exhaust), you should have (experienced, recommended, honest) chimney experts out to have a look (when feasible) and give you a quote. Ten years ago we got estimates of, if memory serves, $5,000 or $6,000 to get one fireplace operable (e.g. relined and firebox made functional). I’m sure it would be more now, and will vary depending on exactly what you want done and existing conditions. However, getting a new gas line is virtually impossible these days, and even extending an existing one may be difficult. Alcohol inserts may also be an option.