Repointing and Parging a Rubble Cellar Wall

The mortar in one of our cellar walls is crumbling. We’re wondering what is the proper type of mortar to use when repointing, and what is the proper material to use to parge the wall? About how much would you estimate this work should cost? The rubble wall dates from the 19th century. It is about 18 feet wide and 7 feet tall. Thank you!

cate

in General Discussion 4 years and 11 months ago

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lucie | 4 years and 11 months ago

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Thank you!

Guest User | 4 years and 11 months ago

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Olga P – at this point with the work having been completed on your wall I don’t think you should be considering trying to remove the cement coating. You would likely do more damage to your wall that way in the short term. What I would encourage you to do is to make sure that you carefully monitor all potential spots where water could get behind the cement (roofline, sides, around windows, any thru-wall penetrations, etc.) to keep as much water out of the whole assembly as possible. It sounds like your contractor may have gone in this direction because there was already a partially intact surface on the wall and trying to remove that and repoint the brick would have been much more difficult and more expensive. It is not the ideal result but hopefully if you can keep the water out you can protect the underlying brick.

lucie | 4 years and 11 months ago

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GreenThinker, the problem with my brick is that it is now completely covered in a thick layer of portland cement mix outside. So, I am just waiting when my bricks will start to fall apart.

Guest User | 4 years and 11 months ago

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@GreenThinker – foundation walls of this age were designed to breathe, if you stop them from doing just that they will deteriorate and you will have much bigger problems. it is similar to the portland cement mortar used with soft brick – the water stays out of the mortar and instead stays in the brick, which will literally fall apart. an old rubble wall has all kinds of different stones with different minerals embedded in them. if you don’t allow moisture to move OUT of the wall the moisture will move IN the wall and cause deterioration of whatever stone is most susceptible. Once that stone begins to fail, the wall begins to fail. consider the original materials and design when making modern intervention.
if the stone is currently in good condition it’s probably fine to use a harder mortar with this type of material (rather than with brick) but parging the wall in an attempt to waterproof it is a bad idea.

GreenThinker | 4 years and 11 months ago

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i never saw any logic of letting moisture passthrough from a foundation wall into a cellar. You don’t want moisture in your cellar. Once it’s in, all these cellars have no system of properly getting it out; all year round. These rocks can be completely underwater, they aren’t going to dissolve just because they aren’t being allowed to breath into a space. There are even specialized companies that completely encapsulate foundations with insulation.

restorationcontractor | 4 years and 11 months ago

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Cate, you do not want to parge or “waterproof” the wall. It needs to allow moisture to pass through, what you want to do is remove all the loose mortar and repoint.
Parging a wall every 10 years is NOT standard practice, the engineer who told you that has absolutely no experience in this type of work. If you need to do something other than paint after 10 years it’s simply because they did a crappy cover up job with no understanding of how to do the work. Proper repointing of the wall should last a lifetime.
There are clear breathable sealers that will do the job after it’s repointed.
This job is all in the prep work, but fieldstone walls are quite attractive when properly repointed.
My preference would be to use a soft mortar to better match the existing mortar, a type “O” or even “N” should be ok, and these are readily available.
Hope that helps, if you can post a photo I can give you a more detailed rundown on all the steps.

JohnHancock | 4 years and 11 months ago

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I believe the wall in question is fieldstone, rubble not brick. It distroys the old brick which are soft but the rocks are not as soft and porous

GreenThinker | 4 years and 11 months ago

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What i was referring to is a portland mix cement. Portland Cement will not destroy your wall. When you read about this subject matter it’s based on the idea that the compressive strength of modern mortar is greater than the existing brick’s compressive strength. In theory, as this modern mortar expands and contracts; it will crack the brick.

Now, there are several different types of mortar products, ranging from a compressive strength of 500 to 4000+ psi. The lower the psi, the more lime/sand there is; which gives it more of a flex. So, it’s recommended to use a lower psi mortar with old bricks, so if something does expand and contract, there’s a harmony to the two materials. Soft brick, soft mortar.

I would not lose any sleep over the thought that your wall be destroyed. It will outlast certainly every person alive today. Contractors use modern mortar to repoint and fix old brick walls, all the time; with no ill effects.

And a foundation rubble wall, made from stone has a compressive strength of about 20,000psi. Doesn’t matter what you use. The mortar isn’t there to bind the stone together, it’s simply there to keep it apart. Using a hydraulic cement based product will simply make the joints strong and resist any water.

lucie | 4 years and 11 months ago

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GreenThinker, a you referring the lime based vs portland mix cement difference? we are currently in a very bad situation. We agreed to contractor suggestion last November when we bought historical house to “fix” a crumbling brick outside wall that was covered partially in some sort of cement, also in a bad shape. This wall is facing garden, we did not have to deal wuth landmark permits but this contractor works in brownstone Brooklyn all the time.
They did a great job, we paid 9 k. It is a load bearing wall of the part of the basement that is 100% above ground.
Recent ly i was doing research and i came across the fact that portland cement will destroy this wall very fast. House was built 1850s. I asked contractor, he said that he used a mix of 3 parts of portland cement and one part lime. Not the mix that you recommend as i understand. He says we should be fine. I think we have to take cement down and we lost that money and some more.

GreenThinker | 4 years and 11 months ago

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Best product for this type of work is “Rapid Set Mortar Mix” which is a high strength hydraulic cement mix. HomeDepot carries it, in the reviews you’ll find pictures and testimonials of the product being used for this type of situation. Need to also get the “set control” product, otherwise it sets too quickly.

cate | 4 years and 11 months ago

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Thanks, Maggie. We don’t have a drainage problem. It’s just the nature of a rubble wall.

Guest User | 4 years and 11 months ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "195579"

definitely don’t use a waterproof material. it will make the mortar deteriorate even faster. i would personally just repoint. if you have perpetual moisture coming in you probably have a drainage problem that needs to be resolved outside the building.

cate | 4 years and 11 months ago

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Or should we just repoint and skip the parging?

cate | 4 years and 11 months ago

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no-permits, because the nature of the rubble wall is that moisture is always coming in, the mortar is always crumbling, and dust is always piling up. An engineer told us parging every 10 years is standard practice. One mason wants to use waterproof material to parge — I forget the brand name — very common on stoops. I suspect it’s a bad idea to use waterproof material on the inside when moisture is constantly getting inside. Maybe better to use some kind of high-lime mortar for both the pointing and the parging?

stevecym | 4 years and 11 months ago

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don’t answering that. it turns out i “parged” the horrible 1920’s decorative plaster in my house without evening knowing there was a term for what i was doing.

stevecym | 4 years and 11 months ago

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what is “parge”?

yudashasom | 4 years and 11 months ago

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Why do you want to parge?

JohnHancock | 4 years and 11 months ago

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgU245CbALc&ab_channel=ThisOldHouse

JohnHancock | 4 years and 11 months ago

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There’s a This Old House youtube topic on repointing a fieldstone basement much like our brownstone basements here in Brooklyn