Reno next door - took down our extension wall?

So, our next door neighbors are renovating, and just tore down their junky back extension, which was immediately adjacent to our junky back extension (neither was permitted, probably both built in the 60s or 70s). During demo, their workers discovered there was a single layer of cinderblock between our two extensions, which they removed, claiming it was theirs – but we think it was likely ours (our extension is slightly taller than theirs, as was the wall that was removed). Obviously, we’re eventually going to renovate as well- but in the meantime our downstairs tenant has a kitchen with a wall that’s just a single layer of brick, and we’re worried about it collapsing etc. Any advice?

mrreedent

in General Discussion 3 years and 7 months ago

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mrreedent

in General Discussion 3 years and 7 months ago

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@oldhome – his name was Tom Gasbarro, was referred to me by a brooklyn architect friend who has worked with him a lot. He was calm and professional and generally a nice guy- t.gasbarro@hotmail.com.

stevecym | 3 years and 7 months ago

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OP, in the absence of brick and mortar construction, most residential walls are “stud” walls. That is woid studs with sheathing and finish on the outside and drywall or plaster on the inside. It may not be up to the 1938 code which if I recall correctly banned all wood frame construction in the city (for fireproofing) and if this were in the suburbs, with the studs set 16″ on center, on a proper sole plate and foundation, there would be nothing wrong with it and it could support a roof or second story. Assuming it was done correctly, I would think the issue is the 1938 and subsequent nyc codes. So no, it may not be to code but just because it is a stud wall does not mean it’s worse than say a single row of unsupported brick.

oldhome | 3 years and 7 months ago

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mpm333 – would you mind sharing the name/contact of the structural engineer you used. We are in a similar situation. The home – attached to ours (sister homes) shares a common wall. They are planning a gut renovation. We both have those back extensions. I think they have somehow included this extension in the plans for the renovation to justify a horizontal expansion of their home. Which is a bit hard to imagine – given our shared wall. I’m thinking it might be helpful to have a preemptively have someone experienced with these sorts of things take a look at it.

mrreedent

in General Discussion 3 years and 7 months ago

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thanks all. got a structural engineer out, rather than calling DOB- the good news, it doesn’t seem to be about to collapse, at least not any worse than it was all along. bad news: it’s not even a single layer of brick, just a stud wall (!!!) – so not up to code AT ALL. we’re keeping fingers crossed that the new extension currently being built by neighbors will protect it from the elements until we have the $ to tear it down and rebuild. luckily our tenants have noticed nothing amiss! oy vey!

stevecym | 3 years and 7 months ago

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Thank you for the info on brick nogging. I googled it. I have seen it used outside more as a decorative measure, a throwback to old england. OP would be lucky if they had that as the wood elements might actually be supporting the roof above. The wood in between is exactly what my source meant by “additional support structure” for anything over 7′.

I once looked at a 1920’s Tudor style mansion in westchester that had brick nogging on the outside. They wanted me to replace the rotten elements. I did not know the term for this sort of construction.

thisuglyhouse | 3 years and 7 months ago

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A few points to address:
1.) Your neighbor’s GC needs to shore up your remaining walls and roof immediately!
2.) Hire an engineer to asses the damage.
3.) I own a house built in the late 1800’s that used a single layer of brick on the front and rear walls of the house divided with lumber uprights. This style of construction is called “brick nogging” and was used more as an insulation between floors. The structure of the wall should rest on the floor joists spanning throughout each party wall, which are thicker, but definitely get an engineer to access your situation.
4.) This doesn’t sound very neighborly at all despite best intentions with their renovation. Calling DOB would be my last resort as they may find things in your property that they would fine you violations for. But may be necessary if your neighbor doesn’t do right.

I hope it all turns out ok!

andriywww1990 | 3 years and 7 months ago

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are you sure this is a single wall of brick, as though it was a veneer placed in front of the blocks? if this is a single course of brick – and i have never seen anything like that without something else behind it, block or something, i think you need to do what cate said and call an engineer right away. two courses of brick, that is how old walls were made with them joined by metal straps every few courses, so they can support each other, yes. but a single course? if this were me, I would not let my son walk under the roof that is supporting until i spoke to an engineer.

ok, i am not a mason. but i just now googled if it were possible to build a single layer brick wall. what i found was that someone said it is possible to go up to 7′. I do not know that person’s credentials AND that might not have been written to meet NYC’s codes and when we consider that your wall was built with no permit and POSSIBLY no engineering (without the help of a trained professional), i would ASSUME that it might not be built on a proper footing which means it MIGHT be compromised. I would GUESS this wall is higher than 7′ if people are occupying the space below and what i read was that if one wishes to go higher than 7′, the wall must rely on “additional support structure”. if it were two layers of brick, i might be ok with it and i might not question it unless i saw something else wrong – indication of a shift or movement.

generally speaking, any walls made of entirely red brick are two layers built next to each other. that is what my experience has been.

because life safety is a risk here, err on the side of caution.

stevecym | 3 years and 7 months ago

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The problem with doing what you should do which is exactly what resident2 says to do, is that when the dob arrives, they might very well decide that the ops extension is very unsafe and they might very well take action that will disrupt ops life as well as their tenant’s. This is not simply going to be a violation to the perps. It will be a violation to op for having an unsafe wall. Does not matter whose fault it is, they have to issue it to put it on the record and force op to take action and to protect themselves.

The perps should have had a permit for this, proper insurance for demo, and I suppose it should have been filed. If I had to wager, that construction team has none of those things and yes, op should call dob. Get ready for the consequences. It’s going to cost a lot of money.

resident2 | 3 years and 7 months ago

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Did you get a survey in your title report when you bought the property? It should show if the wall is yours/theirs or a party wall. If it is yours or a party wall; call 311 immediately and get a stop work order. I know to some this may seem aggressive; but even if your neighbor thought / knew for sure that the wall was theirs it is only polite and the neighborly thing to do, to warn you that the wall was coming down, so theirs was the aggressive act.

cate | 3 years and 7 months ago

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    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_pages"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["create_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["unfiltered_upload"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_dashboard"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["update_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["install_plugins"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["update_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["install_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["update_core"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["list_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["remove_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["promote_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_theme_options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_themes"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["export"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Gallery overview"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Use TinyMCE"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Upload images"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage gallery"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage tags"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Manage others gallery"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Edit album"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Change style"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Change options"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_users_notify"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_single_user"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_multiple_users"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["email_user_groups"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["NextGEN Attach Interface"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["copy_posts"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["ure_edit_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_create_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_delete_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_create_capabilities"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_delete_capabilities"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_manage_options"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["ure_reset_roles"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["edit_ads_txt"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_source"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_sources"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_source_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_item"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_items"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_item_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklist"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_blacklists"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_blacklist_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_template"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_private_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_feed_templates"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["manage_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["assign_feed_template_terms"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["read_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["publish_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["delete_others_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["edit_published_shortcoders"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_manage_seo"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_general_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_advanced_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_schema_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_social_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_edit_htaccess"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_titles"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_sitemap"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_404_monitor"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_link_builder"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_redirections"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_role_manager"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_search_console"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_site_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_analysis"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_general"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_advanced"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_snippet"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_onpage_social"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_admin_bar"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_analytics"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_content_ai"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["srm_manage_redirects"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["SPF Manage Analytics"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["administrator"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["editor"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Is the kitchen in the extension? In any case, get an engineer to look at it.