Oil to gas, or oil to.... electric?

Again; I bow out with my input.
Hope you do well OP.

If you don’t know how much something should cost, the 3 bid method is not going to give you the right price for the job. It’s very easy to find 3 contractors who will all give you a high price. Usually by the time I get to the proposal stage, I’ve already priced up the job, and I’m trying to find out who is bidding to win, and who is right for the job. Usually when I show my numbers, I can get the price reduced. Contractors bid higher when costs are unknown. But on something like a minisplit install, if you know how much the equipment costs, and how many days of labor are needed you can price it. There are some details like drains, electric, dunnage, and drywall repairs, but you can figure it out.

Also I’d say is if you have a good plan when the contractor shows up for the proposal you can get a better price. If you say, “look here’s a plumbing chase where you can run your lineset”, then you’re probably going to get a better price than if you say, “I don’t care if that wall is made of brick, you figure it out.”

I gotta say, I like working with a pro, but sometimes whe n I hire a pro, the standard of work is just so disapointing. For example, when I do my own plumbing, it comes out nice and every joint looks good. I don’t route the plumbing some weird way that will block me later to save 3 dollars on fittings. I don’t install a valve that you can’t open all the way because the handle is too close to other pipes. I leave room to insulate water pipes or install the insulation as I work. I can adjust the pitch on drains to reduce noise. I won’t put pipes where it’s likely someone will drill into the wall later. Part of the trick is to talk with them at as the job begins and show them that I understand and care about these details.

But getting back to minisplits, it’s kind of the same thing, perhaps even more of a wild west. If you can specify what kind of system you need, and how you want everything run, you can get a good price and a good system. You can also get a system much more expensive than necessary which doesn’t even work well, and this outcome is extremely common.

I HATE Oil.
For one, repairs are expensive because very few individuals who work on them so the cost is high. Even some of the larger delivery companies call my comapny for the repair situation as they do not want to liablity of service just continued delivery revenue.
Second, to echo, Oil is expensive and I think will continue to increase due to the pressure on its use.
And Third because I have seen too many Oil Companies strong arm clients due to their dependency on them. I saw an executive tell a priest either pay the cost or have your church freeze on Sunday morning. Took us three months but we converted that boiler to a solid Dual Fuel!

From a professional, reviewing proposal numbers without the actual proposal or company information is near useless; especially when you yourself are not a professional.
Alway get at least three options. Compare just the proposal scopes separately (line by line of what is contractually written), the companies separately (history, references, reputation) and the numbers separately (your budget is key to it all) to see what lines up. Ask questions when you see descrepancies and build your plan from there.
We call it the Blind Test.

60k is a #metoo moment. 40k seems like a high price, and 30k is quite possibly still leaving money on the table, but it depends on exactly what the situation is and what’s included. There are a lot of ways to pay too much or not get a system that works well, or both, but I found those pitfalls to avoidable if you put a little time in to learn about it.

I also don’t agree that minisplits should reduce humidity more than other heating systems would. I’m open to being convinced otherwise, but I’m not seeing it. In some situations you could incorporate a humidifier, but I’m guessing not in this installation they way they are doing it.

I was planning to make a post to share my research on minisplit pricing and design soon so I may as well chime in here. I feel I should first say this is not professional advice. First you need to know how much the heat load of your building is. You can have the calculation done by an engineer, and it shouldn’t cost much just for that. Or, if your house is a brick rowhouse with buildings on both sides, it’s probably roughly 80-100kbtu. Why, you may ask, is the current boiler 250kbtu? Well, that’s a story for another post, but basically it’s too big.

So let’s assume you go with mitsubishi equipment, which is a good choice. Now there’s some things you need to know which for some reason nobody tells customers. One is that m-series units are much cheaper than city-multi or p-series units. If you can get m-series untis, you can save money, but you have to think a little about the design. Hyperheat M-series condenser units over 30kbu require a branch box if there is more than one head(you call it a point), which adds expense. You could install three 28kbtu condenser units which would give you 84kbtu, and no box needed. You can have up to 9 internal units on this system. Also know this. You can generally oversize the interior units by 30% with mitsubishi equipment. That way if you’re sleeping in one room at night for example, and the heatpump isn’t quite keeping up and the temperature falls to 70, you could turn down another unit on that condenser and get more btus in the sleeping room while letting another area fall to 68. Not something you want to do all the time, but a nice feature to have since you probably don’t need every room at full temp all the time, and it gives you a little more stretch on your equipment.

Next up, ways to reduce the number of heads. Fewer heads means less money. But what do you do if you have a floor with 4 rooms in it? Well there are options.

1) Four wall mounted units
2) Two horizontal ducted units or a horizontal unit and a wall unit
3) One multiposition ducted air handler unit.
4) another combination of units

Ducts sounds scary. But the horizontal ducted units can be a great choice. If you can drop the in a small area, say in a closet or bathroom, about 10 inches, you may be able to reach many other rooms with small ducts that can fit in the joist spaces costing you no ceiling height. One unit could serve 4 rooms instead of installing 4 wall units. The ducted units are more expensive to install, but not anywhere near 4 times as expensive. Also, if done nicely, it may be possible to have only a little grille in each room instead of a big chunky wall unit, which may be a good tradeoff for the soffit, especially if that can be done in a closet or other appropriate space. Installers won’t pitch this. Many don’t really know much about the horizontal units, and don’t know how to use them or price them and prefer to avoid them. They’d be happy installing the 4 wall units, so you have to do your own leg work.

The multiposition air handler is like a central air system that connects to your minisplit condenser. You could put in in the cellar, and cover many rooms by running ducts in the cellar and then coming up inside closets and walls, or use floor registers. This can also reduce the number of total units you need, but another advantage is that you can get one up to 36kbu, but you’d probably end up needing a branch box to use it, since the condenser would need to be over 30. There is a 30 version which would be fine. The horizontal units on the other hand are available only up to 18kbtu, although some larger p-series units are also compatible with m-series condensers. Also, know that upsizing equipment doesn’t generally cost much, but it creates complications so you want the equipment that is the right size for what your are doing.

So moving on to how to get a good price. Well you need to figure out all your equipment and where you want to put it. Draw pictures if possible, and note the model numbers of the equipment you want ot use. Think about where the condensate lines can reach a drain, and the routing for the lineset(about 2.5inches, will fit in most walls). Make a list of which equipment and how many units of each you need and give that to companies that you invite to bid. A big problem is that if it’s not clear what the installation is going to actually be, a company might just bid 60k and figure if they get the crazy job, they can’t possibly lose money. If you want to get a good price, you want multiple people bidding the same clear specs.

If you want to do a rough estimate, google the model numbers for all your equipment, and get prices for each machine. Add them up and double them. Add a something for each ducted unit, that’s a ballpark price for the total. So if you have 13k in equipment, you might end up with around 26k for the job including equipment. Obviously other factors will impact the install, but that’s not crazy.

That does not include the electric, which will depend on where you install and whether you have the capacity on your service and panels. If you have to upgrade your service factor that in, you can read about that in other posts. Each condenser needs about 30-40amps, and presumably two will be on your panel, and one on the tenant panel. Another expensive cost is booming equipment to the roof and installing steel dunnage if you want to install the condensers there. This could cost 5-10k, and may be included in the 60k. This can usually be avoided by doing a parapet wall installation and bringing up the condensers another way, but expect pushback from installers that just want to do a cookie cutter job at whatever expense to you. If you have 18 inches of parapet or so, you’re probably good and a little less may work. Otherwise you may need to build up a little which will not cost anywhere near the price of steel dunnage. Finally, if you need permits, that could cost a lot or a little depending on how you do it and whether you are landmarked. Figure between 1k and 5k if you file, most people don’t, but if it’s a roof install and it’s visible from the street and it’s landmarked, or you need structural steel, that’s where you may end up wanting to file. There’s more to know but that should get you started. Good luck.

Being a gas fired heating advocate, I have long resisted the siren call of minisplits…however, now I install mitsubishi hyper heat systems… drop me a line and I can come by to take a look…errol832000@hotmail.com. Not available for an actual installation for 6 weeks

That quote sounds a little on the high end but it’s hard to tell without some added details. Does it include the carpentry required to open and close up walls. What brand hvac? Mitsubishi is the best (quietest and efficient) and also the most expensive. Without the carpentry work you could probably find someone to do it for closer to $40k. Then again there are mini splits that will still function in the coldest winter weather and those are more expensive than the standard ones I’m thinking of which could be why you’re getting that $60k number.

The heat from the mini splits is going to be really dry and possibly uncomfortable when compared with a hot water or steam system. You may even end up needing a humidifier in the winter. The new closed system boilers are really efficient but yes, you are burning natural gas. Interesting of you to bring up disposal costs of your radiators which is something to consider but it’s likely they would be recycled and sold for scrap.

By the way, really good insulation and windows/doors make a huge difference as well!

@ud – Thank you so much for gently holding all my variables and giving a clear and sensible recommendation. I think you’re right.

We were just quoted ~$60k for installing two compressors and 8 points (to supply 2 apartments, spread over 3 floors). Is this in the realm of normal, or is it on the higher or lower end? If that’s the norm, I’m not sure I want air conditioning THAT much, lol. Ah geez.

The oil is just way too expensive. I haven’t looked recently but gas is probably around 1/3 the cost. Gas is getting to be a pain though. Minisplit can be done, I’d get an engineer to spec it out to make sure it can do the job, but with the right equipment it’s possible. Won’t be as cheap as gas right now, but will give you air conditioning.

I have another idea for you.

Put in the minisplit, and replace the oil tank. Most of the time the minis will do it, and for those really cold days you can fire up the boiler. On the not so cold days you will save money using thr heat pump. Then when the boiler dies you can decide if you want to retire the oil system.

I’d say the direction best for the earth his the heat pump. If the electric comes from gas, with transmission losses it’s not clear that it saves on emissions, but one day we’ll have clean electric and that’s the direction I think you’d want to support.

*That last bullet was meant to read:

“Treads lightest in the earth”

TL;DR
Really, I’m interested in TOTAL cost – in the short term (installation, debris/waste etc), in the long term (energy usage, efficiency, electric bills, human comfort), and in the longest term (impact to planet, earth , air, water, and people).

(Also, I’m not even sure that personal solar rooftop cells are the way of the future. They feel like a distraction from more systemic change that’s needed, but that’s a matter for a different thread!)