No meters in newly renovated house

We are buying a 2-family-house in Ocean Hill. It is a rehab, but last minute, seller tells us there are no gas and electrical meters installed yet. He wants to close and offers $ 20,000 for this to be completed within 10 days. We are unsure how serious this is, and what the worst possible outcome could be. Does anyone has experience with that sort of thing?

michaelsaur67

in General Discussion 8 years and 7 months ago

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workisfun | 8 years and 6 months ago

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That’s great. Smart to have a per diem penalty. But sounds like the resolution was no drama which is the best kind of ending.

michaelsaur67 | 8 years and 6 months ago

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Hi everyone, I wanted to give you an update on the situation, and I also wanted to say I really appreciate the thoughtful and helpful advices and recommendations. So we did close on Dec. 23 with $ 20 K in escrow and penalty for no gas per day in the new year. National Grid came ten days later and opened the shut off gas from the street, tested and installed new meters in the house. All is good now, and again, many thanks to you. Brownstoner and its folks is amazing.

mholesh | 8 years and 6 months ago

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Put it in escrow. Normally the electrician and the plumber will install them after their initial inspections and your utility company will install them. Nothing to be worried about.

eman134 | 8 years and 6 months ago

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Take Brucef’s advice …if there is no filing for plumbing and electrical work on the NYC DOB website you will have to hire licensed plumber and electrician to retest and re do all the work. 10’s of thousands of dollars of tearing apart everything and months of filing , approval and work

brucef | 8 years and 6 months ago

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Hey Erroll, long time no see.
On the plumbing side, National Grid won’t install meters without a “green card”.
To get said green card, your licensed plumber would have to perform a pressure check for the city plumbing inspector. Getting a licensed plumber to come in after the fact and purport that he in fact performed the plumbing work, will be a neat trick. If all work was performed up to current code (and that’s a big if), you might get lucky.
As every licensed plumber I have worked with is to some degree a prima donna, he believes that only he knows the arcane code, and all other licensed plumbers are hacks, and that unlicensed handymen are a hazard to mankind.
To some degree begging and pleading helps, but part of their Kabuki dance goes as follows: Your groveling sets the stage for the hero’s entrance. He is struck by the enormity of your problems, and the great repairs that would be necessary to possibly get him to agree to conspire with you to “fool” the city beaurocracy. This won’t be cheap, as he supposedly has to do the work, and also risk his license.
That a bove scenario assumes that plumbing work was done pretty much to code.
If there are glaring defects, then he and any inspector will immediately know that the existing work was never done with a permit, as no inspector would ever have approved it. The plumbing inspector doesn’t usually know what was done with a permit, and what wasn’t. He is called in by your licensee to inspect just what the new plumbing application covers, and he normally won’t look elsewhere if nothing smacks him in the face. For instance he will look at the meter pans, but usually wouldn’t inspect the valves (gas cocks) upstairs behind the sink. If there is gas boiler or hot water heater, he will look there.

Electrical is an analogous situation. Licensed electricians view every job, whether botched or not, as work they didn’t get paid to do. They resent the situation, and there will be no bargain getting them to assume responsibility.

So back to your original question regarding escrow or wisdom of closing without the hardest, most risky part of a project completed. I would ask a licensed plumber to be your “trusted advisor”, and pay him to accompany you and advise you to ascertain which of the scenarios I outlined apply. Ask him to ball park his estimate and more importantly, how many months he predicts the process will take. Getting the repair order through the plumbing division, getting the inspection scheduled, failing once, and doing further alterations, then reinspection could easily take 2-3 months.

On the electrical side, the inspections are a little faster, but getting the application through the electrical division is much worse. Oftentimes there are extensive delays in their system, for instance triggered by an old permit or finance dep’t issue that won’t turn up in a typical title search. Electrical division is physically separate from the Building Dep’t.

I would call this situation a red flag, indicative of probable other problems that have not come too light, yet

Unless you are thoroughly versed in these matters, don’t get “on the hook” for someone else’s problems.

You might consider hiring an expediter to tell you exactly what I have just told you, but possibly he could do a little more “sniffing” around.

dorkofwindsor | 8 years and 6 months ago

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With the very limited info given, it reeks of a half assed flip. In addition to lacking gas or electric service, expect nightmares from such half assed people. ie no waterproofing membranes in showers, craptastic bathroom ventilation, plumbing nightmares , things you never guessed could be half assed corner cutting bullshit. I have experience with flips, and this one screams “run”, at least from the brief description. I have even seen master plumbers “rent” out their name on thr permit to flippers on their way to returement – never having stepped foot in the house.. The work done by unlicensed hacks. These kind of people are downright menaces to society., messing up housing stock for generations. No meters? HUGE red flag – for the rest of thr project not just the meters.

slopefarm | 8 years and 6 months ago

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We’re all jumping a little ahead of things. We don’t know how the inspection went, or the quality of the legal advice he is getting from his lawyer.

daveinbedstuy | 8 years and 6 months ago

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And, get a good RE attorney. I suggest David Fainkich 917-376-1588

eman134 | 8 years and 6 months ago

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at least $50k in escrow…you are facing 2 work without a permit violations for $5000 each and the possibility of having to replace all gas and electric risers …loook up your address on the NYC DOB website and see if any permits were pulled on the job
http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/bispi00.jsp

slopefarm | 8 years and 6 months ago

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If, if you are going to go the escrow route, get your people in place first who are going to do the jobs, make sure that everyone is sure that everything that needs to be done can get done, and get an estimate of time, and then have the money and time in the escrow agreement to give you a substantial cushion.

rh | 8 years and 6 months ago

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Definitely get them to put more than $20k in escrow unless you’re getting the house for a good price. The electric alone can run at least $10k IF the wiring is ok, which you should assume isn’t because….they are flippers. Are there panels for each apartment? It will probably take closer to a month than 10 days because of permits and inspections. Don’t forget that you have to patch all of your new walls afterwards if wires and plumbing need to be run. Flippers suck.

daveinbedstuy | 8 years and 6 months ago

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From everything we have heard, I’m inclined to agree with Cate. This sounds like a flipper who hasn’t gotten any permits so the likelihood of getting meters and service is remote without a lot of $$$ and headaches. And there are likely to be more headaches from sub [ar workmanship throughout the project. If he made that offer up front, he’s likely looking to cut his losses and walk away for that amount.

cate | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I would not close until you have electric and gas service. He may have been unable to obtain them because there is a problem. Is there a valid C of O? Can you actually get a mortgage without electric and gas service? When we closed on our house one of the units was missing a gas meter, and we were never able to reinstate it because the line was unsound and leaking massively. (This wasn’t necessarily the seller’s fault in our case, but I mention just to indicate what can happen.) So worst case scenario the house is uninhabitable and you have to rip open walls and redo the gas and electrical.

Arkady | 8 years and 7 months ago

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And please follow up on what you find out &/or decide.

slopefarm | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Good luck with the inspection. Prime your inspector in advance about the issues that concern you. Ask for a detailed report on metering issues, mechanicals, structural work, workmanship, etc.

daveinbedstuy | 8 years and 7 months ago

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If permits weren’t pulled, this is going to be a much bigger problem getting meters installed.

michaelsaur67 | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Hi slopefarm, Thank you. I will inspect tomorrow during walk-through and see what the inspector says and see what the permit situation is. My guess is they did not pull the necessary permits, at least according to DOB. I appreciate your input.

slopefarm | 8 years and 7 months ago

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And if they did not pull permits, you want to figure out if they were required to. And if they were required to file the job and pull permits, but did not. you need to stop and think a bit about your next move. But I am getting ahead of the story here.

slopefarm | 8 years and 7 months ago

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    ["ID"]=>
    string(3) "655"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "slopefarm"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BK7dzbqXJe9TV6iU0glcNZiXdOt9CR1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(9) "slopefarm"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(18) "jrubin@law.nyc.gov"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(24) "/forums/users/slopefarm/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:11:42"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(9) "slopefarm"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(655)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

And if they pulled permits, you want the job signed off and closed with DOB before you close.