New Siding Over Existing Shingles
The back of my townhouse is sided with basically roofing shingles. We just got an estimate for vinyl siding, and he said he can go straight over them. Another guy gave an estimate which included removing them.
I know removing the shingles could expose issues that we need to address, so that’s an advantage. But given the cost difference, is it really necessary if we’re not seeing any water spots or anything else along that back wall on the inside?
TIA
DouglasAlan
in General Discussion 3 years and 8 months ago
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14 replies
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 8 months ago
so op, i worked for both types of contractors – a really good one and a not so good one. the really good one was a pain in the neck (which is what my employees think of me today) but he taught me everything, every detail and he explained it to me, not just telling me but the “do this” but the why, why, why. he worked slow and probably did not make a lot of money because he was detail oriented. every cut had to be perfect and he taught me how to caulk windows and make bends on the brake and was impossible. i was also a minor at the time and should not have been on these jobs so he was very careful to not put me in positions where i could get hurt (rarely up on the pump jacks, maybe to the top of the first floor, that was it).
after my first semester of college i came home and needed a job. another guy, the father of one of my friends, was looking for help for the summer. i did not want to go work for him because i recalled how picky the last guy had been. in the end, i took the job. the guy did not really explain anything to me, it was move, move move. production. and one thinks working like that would be harder right? no, it was easier. because they just did not care. keep the hammer swinging and they left you alone. i am not saying we did things wrong that failed, but the attention was not given to it and the only time he explained something to me, it was something that could lead to immediate results on the job – nothing that would help in the long run, nothing that i could really use on another job later. if people learn how to do things from this second guy, they do not get the “why” and then they get lazy an do things their way and guess what, it fails later.
your guy that is poking at things on the other jobs, he is your guy. though i worry that doing what you are doing in one day might be a little too ambitious (multiple operations in multiple places). i don’t know for sure though and maybe setting these up, because the pieces are not contiguous, will go faster and maybe he has a real solid mechanic with him or even a mechanic and helper. to say he will be doing this in one day though, he has to know what he is doing. also, we did other things (like windows and gutters and roofs). if this guy only does siding, he will be faster than people who move between related trades.
stevecym | 3 years and 8 months ago
They are called a pump jacks and that is what my boss used. The good aluminum ones are pricey. Frankly, I would not raise them near other houses or cars or kids but in so far as I knew, my boss never had a problem. Check you guys insurance.
Steve and doorsby are the same.
DouglasAlan | 3 years and 8 months ago
Thanks for all that. The second guy seemed to address issues like this in his sales pitch because he could look each house to the left and right of me and point out mistakes he said he would not make. He also said he could be done in a day or two, and the less expensive guy said two weeks. The more expensive guy said he would not need scaffolding because they have this jack/crank elevator jammy. The less expensive guy said it would take him a day just to construct the scaffolding.
andriywww1990 | 3 years and 8 months ago
we did a lot of siding in the 80’s and slapped it right over what ever was there, often 1950’s suburban asbestos shakes, and i have been back by some of the jobs and have not seen any of the issues resident2 alludes to. i suspect that in terms of weight, the weight of a box of siding, and i have moved plenty of them, in comparison to everything else in and on the house, is not that heavy. keep this in mind, many of the older frame homes in the city are balloon construction and that type of construction is very strong.
in so far as these contractors. this is another trade, like painting, that people are entering because their is little regulation and anyone who swings a hammer thinks they can do it well. a friend of mine on LI hired a crew to do his house. unfortunately for the crew, my friend had once been a siding contractor and soon realized that things were being done wrong. including overlapping the seams so that they are more obvious when pulling into his driveway (as opposed to lapping them so they are more obvious on the side of the house away from the drive and walk). stuff like this is basic, beginner knowledge (sort of like stirring paint or using primer) and if they cannot get that right, there will be other problems. in my friends case, he told them what they were doing wrong which entirely bruised their egos (and this friend of mine is nice, he talks to people nice even when they are screwing things up). they asked for more money to correct some things and in the end they could not do the job right and left.
here are somethings to look for in a siding job to check the skill level of the crew:
the seams, they overlap. when looking up the side of the house, the job should have been started at the back of the house working forward. that way the seam over laps the piece to the back and is less obvious from the front. again, this is very beginner stuff and anyone working on a trained crew learns this day one. if they are not doing this, they are not trained.
go by the house on a very hot day. if the siding has bulges in it, that is because the clowns installing it placed it too tight. in the winter when we were installing we left say 1/2″ or more at the ends, where the overlap is (it is designed for this, so not show the 1/2 or more we left) for expansion. it may appear and disappear with the weather like a door that swells in the summer. before i could hang siding on my own when i was a kid, my boss explained this to me and watched me and made sure i was doing it right. as we drove through neighborhoods, he used to point out the mistakes others had made.
or look up and down a wall. see if you see places where their are dips in the siding, at the tops of each course. if there are, the nails were put in too tight. the nails should be set so the siding kind of hangs there. the nails are not hammered in so far they pull the siding to the wall. maybe a 1/4″ of play. if you see dips, the person doing it does not know what they are doing.
look around a house. look at the course on the front and then the courses on the sides and back. all of them should line up perfectly. it is not a game of chance. if they do not line up the person who did the job did not run a hose level around the house and figure out where the lowest starting point is or did not take the trouble to cut the bottom of the first course off on the walls. what i am talking about here is not really beginner stuff but i can tell you this, even after a couple of years of doing it with him, my boss still did not trust me to do it alone as if we screwed it up, the entire job would be off.
what i just mentioned are the major screw ups that untrained people make. there are probably more but the ones i mention are so striking that every time we passed a job that had them, my boss would lecture me to be sure i never did it.
resident2 | 3 years and 8 months ago
Putting more layers onto a frame house can eventually create structural problems. WEIGHT! If you do not have a frame house, then consider exposing & refinished the masonry under neath. Also consider the the current Asphalt shingles (I am assuming from your description that that is what you have) just cover another layer of something? How many layers do you already have?
Many contractors will tell you it is OK to just put a new layer of siding over the old because they assume they will never get the job if they tell you the cost of doing it right. Also that you will not be there long enough to see it going wrong ….
Taking it all off gives you the option of adding a good ridged insulation base….
It all comes down to economics; are you in an area that will always be modest housing or in an upmarket area where Historic Houses are worth preserving correctly.
ceci | 3 years and 8 months ago
Ask to see the portfolio of jobs he’s completed; before and after photos!! Ask for address of recent jobs and ask the homeowner for recommendation, if possible!!!! Do a search on Yelp!!! Search company on BBB etc!!!!
DouglasAlan | 3 years and 8 months ago
Another guy came today and quoted $12000 with a $1000 cash discount. He seemed more on it than yesterday’s guy. I don’t know if that means anything about the actual work.
cate | 3 years and 8 months ago
Great to know. Thank you so much for the prices, DouglasAlan. He’d better remove the existing aluminum siding in the front before beginning and dispose of it, included in the price. 🙂 Thank you!
DouglasAlan | 3 years and 8 months ago
Our back needs the top two floors (the ground floor will stay brick) as well as the laundry annex. That’s $8500. Then the front just needs the top two floors, which is $5500. That’s just one estimate right now. And I hope he plans on removing the aluminum siding, which is what’s on the front.
cate | 3 years and 8 months ago
I am curious what the quote is for vinyl these days.
cate | 3 years and 8 months ago
When you do vinyl siding, you can go over the existing (roofing) shingles. If you do wood shingles, wood siding, cement board siding, and so forth, you typically remove the uppermost layers, but you leave the sheathing in place (unless you want to remove it to insulate). One thing to be aware of is that if you currently have any issues with air infiltration, putting vinyl over the shingles is not going to help with that. Whatever you do, don’t stucco over the shingles, because it will likely create a massive problem. One of our neighbors recently redid their old vinyl siding with new vinyl siding ,and I must say it turned out very well. They used a bit of a thicker white surround around the windows and it gives it a bit of character. If you are lucky enough to have your original Victorian wood trim around the windows and doors, by all means please keep it. Good luck.
brokelin | 3 years and 8 months ago
If I remember correctly, the asbestos risk is likely that they used asbestos in making the shingles themselves, up until they didn’t (if they’ve stopped, which presumably they have by now), so if you research that, and it is indeed the case, depending on when the shingles were put on, if you can guess, you can probably safely assume they have asbestos in them (just like you can assume paint put on before a certain time will likely be leaded paint), if you think they have been there since well before they stopped putting asbestos in shingles (remember, like with paint or floor tiles, people used up old stocks of things with lead or asbestos in them even after they stopped manufacturing things with them), or you can have a piece of shingle tested (and possibly anything they applied beneath it – sheeting or glue) for asbestos if the cost of the asbestos abatement part of removing them is going to be a relevant point in your overall decision. Or, as with lead paint, you can decide to just cover over them.
stevecym | 3 years and 8 months ago
I worked for a home improvement contractor doing siding among other things in the early 80’s and we went over everything. If it were my house, I would go over it
ceci | 3 years and 8 months ago
I had a similar issue and the contractor stated removal of shingles exposes asbestos risk !! Therefore, I just had them side over existing shingles and have not had any problems!!!