need alt-1 if removing kitchen from 2-family house?
We are in contract for a 2-family house that has been lived in as a 1-family (no division between units), although there are 2 partial kitchens. We want to treat it as a 1-family. An architect has told us that if we want to avoid an alt-1 we have to have 2 kitchens and a locked door between units. Otherwise we need to do an alt-1 with all its complications. Is this true?
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
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dorkofwindsor | 4 years and 8 months ago
Deva – 2 fam houses used as a 1 fam are sold regularly, no one seems to ever get a problem with financing. And of course the city does not get involved with home sales. I was looking at changing 2-fam to a 1-fam (get rid of extra meters, just be a good citizen) and an expediter told me it would be $$$ and a lot of time and headache. He thought I was crazy just for considering it since I wasn’t doing a big reno.
hkapstein | 4 years and 8 months ago
Not that long ago you could change the CofO, but now it’s basically impossible unless you want to put in sprinklers at a cost of say 50-100k. If the house has a 2-fam CofO, you could use as a 1-fam, but getting any permits could be a problem, and you might face issues if you ever recieved a violation where they noticed this fact, although that doens’t commonly happen.
If there is no cofo, you have to determine the historical use, and potentially see what kind of LNO you could get, and there are lots of threads here on that you can search up.
deva | 4 years and 8 months ago
This is an interesting discussion as I am considering buying a house thats listed as 2 family but as used as one family. It does have 2 kitchen — one main and another pantry but there is not separation between the two units. Is that a problem? I really would like to use the house as one family. Please advise!
hkapstein | 4 years and 8 months ago
I do not believe DOB will accept a 2 family without a seperation in any type of filing. However if you have a 2-family cofo or LNO approvable historical use, and you want to eliminate the second kitchen, your best bet is to avoid permits altogether, file an alt 2 that doesn’t involve the kitchen in one of the units so it does not appear on the the drawings, or install a kitchenette in such a way that you can remove it after closing the permit, or use it somehow. A 240v outlet and a range won’t cost much. You can get a fridge on craigslist. Perhaps a laundry hookup could be used for the sink.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
I can’t answer for the DOB or for the architect I talked to, but how would residents of Apt 1 enter their apartment and how would residents of Apt 2 enter theirs? If they each have a lockable entrance that they can reach directly from the outside, then I would think a locked passageway between the two units would be irrelevant. But don’t take my word for it.
krobertson
in General Discussion 4 years and 9 months ago
Ithaca – I’m considering using two units as one as well. I would like to confirm your architect is saying DoB is ok with there being a passageway directly between the two units as long as it has a lockable door in between??? For example I can place a single door on a adjorning wall between the two units and have DoB sign-off on it as still being two separate units — as long as I have the separate bathroom kitchens, etc for each unit? I imagine it would have to be a fire rated door?
sixyearsandcounting | 4 years and 9 months ago
You may be able to get away with a “kitchenette” in the rental unit. Just a sink and mini-fridge and maybe an outlet for a cooktop. Make it a wet bar or something like that.
lkrshacmzcy | 4 years and 9 months ago
The way I put it to my Plumbers so they can simplify it for clients:
DOB has records of the Building Type and Occupancy. The Life Necessities (Cooking, Hot Water and Heating) must match that same number. So if it is a two family, it MUST have two stoves regardless of how it is being use otherwise it is technically a No Fly. You will never really get in trouble for it, but if the client ever wants to sell and the buyer is intelligent it can hurt the value since work is obviously needed.
When you really get kicked is if the utilities are ever locked out. We had a beautiful home on Cambridge that was a three being used as a one by a nice family who moved from the suburbs. Original owners did the conversion illegally. They had a Gas scare and the utilities turned off. They either had to file the correct paperwork and permits for the C of O change or literally put back in two kitchens in existing living rooms….
The DOB laws are extremely grey, for my industry at least, but damn are they dumb matter of fact type enforcers.
lkrshacmzcy | 4 years and 9 months ago
The way I put it to my Plumbers so they can simplify it for clients:
DOB has records of the Building Type and Occupancy. The Life Necessities (Cooking, Hot Water and Heating) must match that same number. So if it is a two family, it MUST have two stoves regardless of how it is being use otherwise it is technically a No Fly. You will never really get in trouble for it, but if the client ever wants to sell and the buyer is intelligent it can hurt the value since work is obviously needed.
When you really get kicked is if the utilities are ever locked out. We had a beautiful home on Cambridge that was a three being used as a one by a nice family who moved from the suburbs. Original owners did the conversion illegally. They had a Gas scare and the utilities turned off. They either had to file the correct paperwork and permits for the C of O change or literally put back in two kitchens in existing living rooms….
The DOB laws are extremely grey, for my industry at least, but damn are they dumb matter of fact type enforcers.
allyslope | 4 years and 9 months ago
@kms_bkyn Interesting. Did they do a renovation and then the C of O change. My understanding is when you do a reno there is no limit as to how much the taxes can go up.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
I thought I had responded to Cate but I guess I did not hit the right buttons. The house in question is brick and well built with fairly high ceilings but other than that there is no character to preserve: no moldings, ugly slab doors, no trim. It is important to us to have safe, comfortable stairs. We did consider an elevator but that would eat a lot of space and still leave dangerous stairs.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
Was it the DOB thated object that it did not look like a 2-family? Did you get the permits or not?
kms_bkyn | 4 years and 9 months ago
We live in a house that is taxed as a two family (and was a two family for a long time) but used as a one family. When we filed a job doing work on both the first and second floor, there were objections because it didn’t look like a two family. The DOB didn’t care that the DOF has called it a 2 family for over 100 years. We also have a few friends who have changed their C of O from 2 or 3 family to 1 family and their property taxes went up about 600%.
cate | 4 years and 9 months ago
To preserve the character and value of a 19th century townhouse in Brooklyn, one time-tested approach is keep the original stairs, moldings, doors and other details while updating the mechanicals and wet rooms. There is no obligation to update stairs and other features to conform to modern code in a single-family or two-family private house in Brooklyn. As well, there are many other ways to address aging in place. As for more extensive renovations, there are clever ways to “open up” a historic space and install rear walls of windows and great rooms, or to maximize the width of a narrow house, with subtle interventions that work harmoniously with and are not at odds with the original architecture.
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
Thank you! That is reassuring. We are in favor of making things code compliant – in particular it is important for us not to have steep, narrow stairs, which would be more of a problem as we age. But the thought of throwing away money for a site safety super was very disagreeable.
jimhillra | 4 years and 9 months ago
Here’s another architect opining on the subject. It is my understanding that any condition in which there is no separation between two dwelling units is considered non-compliant, regardless of the age of the condition or number of dwelling units. If you do work that requires filing, then the unit in which the work is performed must be brought into compliance.
Things like stair width, which is a component of egress, are subject to code compliance no matter how old they are, but the rules differ when you’re talking about 1 & 2 family as opposed to 3 and up. In the first NYC building code (1938) 1 and 2 family residences “three stories or less above any basement in height and occupied by two families or less” are exempt from egress requirements, period. Keep in mind that’s basement, meaning garden level, not cellar.
The next code, 1968, changed that. This is why stairs and other egress components are not regulated in most 1 and 2 family homes predating the 1968 code. 3 and up are governed by the Multiple Dwelling Law, which does have minimum stair widths.
But ste p back a minute and look at the big picture. The difference between an Alt 1 and an Alt 2 is not that big, especially if going from 2 to 1. There are a few more forms to file. The architect needs to provide drawings for each floor (you’re already doing one, so it’s just the others where there is no work so they’re easy), very basic front and rear elevations, basic section, and a simple zoning analysis. If your house is code compliant, and it probably is for a 1 or 2 family under the 1938 code, then it’s just paperwork. Yes, it adds cost, but on the order of $5k, maybe $10k at the most.
Also, the site safety super is required based upon the scope of work. An Alt 1 like what you’re describing would not require one.
cate | 4 years and 9 months ago
Just to clarify: If you have one of these legal two-families built without a division between the units, you are in no way obligated to bring them up to current code .They are grandfathered in. For that matter, an old staircase does not need to conform to current code either and is also grandfathered in. (If, however, you do a massive renovation, this can trigger requirements to conform to contemporary code.)
Guest User | 4 years and 9 months ago
Yes, I think we need to talk to more architects. Thanks.
cate | 4 years and 9 months ago
If you have a two-family house and you wish to remove a kitchen, as far as I know no permits are needed and no change of C of O is required. (Going the other direction, adding a unit, is another story and definitely requires permits.) I guess if you are doing a legal, permitted alt-2 renovation and removing a locked door between units as part of that renovation, I guess possibly the DOB might object? But there is no division between the units now and you are not changing anything, so I don’t see the issue. Be aware there are scads of two-family houses in Brooklyn built 1890-1910 that were built originally as two-families and had no division between the units. (The configuration was a simplex over a duplex and both units had identical small bathrooms in a stack behind the staircase on the third and second floors — in other words, the duplex has an original bathroom on the parlor floor.) They don’t have C of Os but they are legal two families. Perhaps if you consult with a few more architects, you may get a different answer.