Getting started replacing oil boiler with gas OR heat pumps?

Hi all, we are hoping to replace our oil boiler used for steam heat in our Bedstuy brownstone this summer.

Based on speaking to old school contractors, everyone is recommending converting to gas.

But online research tells me that heat pumps *could* be a viable option.

I’ve gone down the google rabbit hole a few times on this, but there seems to be so much conflicting information out there (and of course, most of the info one way or another is published by people with incentives to push one technology or another)

Can you guys recommend any resources as we just get started on trying to do this upgrade?

jakester

in General Discussion 2 years and 4 months ago

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randolph | 2 years and 4 months ago

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wait, now that i think of it the hyperheat system i put in my brooklyn townhouse in 2015 to do all the heating and cooling is still running good as new and has never needed any repairs beyond seasonal maintenance. so that’s 8 years ago. i am officially calling BS on chris’ claims.

jakester | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Okay wow, all super useful information. My main takeaway is “it depends”. I’d like to have an expert diangnose our particular place (EG engineer/system designer_. Definitely prefer an impartial party we can pay for a diagnosis (rather than say a salesperson for a heat pump system). Any recon for where to turn for that?

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 4 months ago

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sadly this new stuff is not going to last as long as our heavy old cast iron american junk.

my grandfather had a heat pump in his then 3 or 4 year old house down south and had to replace it. then again, that was an american product, not a japanese one.

as we look at this, we will have to look at the net, net and that will include a lot of pluses and minuses before we arrive at the actual cost. a lot of research to get there and we cannot count on the hyperbole from the manufacturers and marketing people.

i have a cousin who was a researcher and is now a manager with the DOE. i might put a call in to him to see what he has to say. when he considers cost of product, longevity is something that must be factored in and i have read articles written by him where he did just that (on traditional heating systems).

randolph | 2 years and 4 months ago

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> @Chris Petri
> on average 5-7 years with a top of 10 years and that doesn’t even count the times when a brand new year old unit becomes “obsolete” and needs to be replaced because parts aren’t available anymore from the Manufacturer.

is this coming from experience? seems hard to claim this when the newest models haven’t even been in use for 10 years. the models i installed were introduced in 2019 i think.

also sort of a snide and crappy thing for company owner to be saying. “i love to fleece my customers” is an odd flex. but you do you!

lkrshacmzcy | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Mini Split, Ductless, Furnaces and all the Electric Heat Systems are my new favorite equipment.
Boilers, installed and maintained properly, can last DECADES before they need to be replaced. Even then, a good Boiler Mechanic can Frankenstein it for even longer. There is a Boiler in Brooklyn still operational our company put in 78 years ago…we have the receipt!
Split, Ductless, Furnaces and all the Electric Heat Systems on the other hand get replaced on average 5-7 years with a top of 10 years and that doesn’t even count the times when a brand new year old unit becomes “obsolete” and needs to be replaced because parts aren’t available anymore from the Manufacturer.
When all of my customers have an Equipment Replacement Turnover of a 10 year max, I will sleep happily on Park Avenue and thank all of you for switching to Electric.

randolph | 2 years and 4 months ago

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> @Master Plvmber
> Are you paying less for electricity per kilowatt than homes in Brooklyn are?

in may 2023 central hudson charged me $0.11489 per kwh and con ed charged me $.12 per kwh. so basically the same.

Lurker | 2 years and 4 months ago

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There’s so many variables to consider and anyone considering a change should use data to make the decision. MP and Eman and others would know all the ins and outs but the cost/benefit ought to be very calculable within a reasonable margin of error.
A few huge variables that come to mind.
Is your home properly insulated, including tight windows/doors. If not, start there first.
Is it free-standing or row.
What is your heat loss calc.
Do you intend to have pumps for both AC and heat, or just AC.
Do you have time-of-use metering or the option to use it
Can you afford/support a solar system–which is a whole other level of calculations.
There’s more obviously which is why an engineer and system designer should be your next call.

Master Plvmber | 2 years and 4 months ago

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@randolph Are you paying less for electricity per kilowatt than homes in Brooklyn are?

randolph | 2 years and 4 months ago

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> @Eman137
> any money that you save on gas is going to be wiped out by your electric bill in the winter

my electric bill is way less than my combined electric and oil bill used to be. yes, i use more electricity overall and especially in the winter, but the overall combined cost to heat/cool is less.

Guest User | 2 years and 4 months ago

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any money that you save on gas is going to be wiped out by your electric bill in the winter
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/EckCtHxNtdP4jLw8L/electric-heat-pumps-mini-splits-vs-natural-gas-boilers

cambellara | 2 years and 4 months ago

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We are in the process of an install for a 3 family building. Hyper heat Mitsubishis. 3 Condensors, one for each unit, and 11 total air handlers. We we remove our boiler to free up space downstairs and save money on gas. We went with Arnica who we recommend. They were the best price and quality of all the installers referred to us.

Guest User | 2 years and 4 months ago

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right now 90percent of nyc electricity comes from fossil fuel…. we will see if those new transmission lines actually get built by 2025https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/4/14/23026076/state-approves-electricity-transmission-lines-power-climate-goals

randolph | 2 years and 4 months ago

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> @Master Plvmber
> environmentally friendly magic

as more and more electricity comes from renewable sources isn’t it fair to believe that heat pumps are more environmentally friendly than burning fossil fuels? It may not be perfect right now, but is it not trending in the right direction?

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 4 months ago

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try to read what hyper heat tech is and they talk about “Invertor Technology” without explaining that –

I spoke to two people yesterday who mirror what mp is saying.

Master Plvmber | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Look into what “hyper heat technology” is. I know we all want to believe it’s environmentally friendly magic sent to earth by Jesus himself, but it’s a costly version of electrical resistance heating, which is basically the same “technology” as what makes your toast in the morning.

jaskin | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Gas is going to become obsolete eventually, so might as well future proof your home for the future with an all electric system! Plus, there are tons of rebates on mini splits, especially if you are converting from oil.

jaskin | 2 years and 4 months ago

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I am in the midst of a townhouse renovation and we are installing a multi zone hyper heat mini split system for both heating and cooling. We are using Daikin instead of Mitsubishi (although Mitsubishi is considered the gold standard of mini splits). The property is a 3 family house, with 2 smaller apartments and 1 larger one. Each smaller one has its own 36k btu condenser (the outdoor unit) connected to 3/4 indoor units and the larger one has two 36k condensers connected to 6 indoor units. Each apartment can control all of its indoor units on your phone or with a hardwired thermostat. We are also installing a few supplemental electric hydronic (more energy efficient) baseboard heaters and electric radiant floor heat in the larger bathrooms. While the project isn’t done and I can’t speak to our design’s success yet, I definitely recommend going with the hyper heat mini splits over gas. If you hire a good engineer to do load calculations (aka how much heating/cooling capacity you’ll need) and design the specs/layout of the units, you will have no problem keeping you r home warm in the winter. The units we have can heat at 100% efficiency until -5 degrees F and goes down to 75% efficiency when it reaches -13 degrees F. Given that NYC hasn’t reached below -1 degrees F in the last 15 years, the units will have no problem. From my past experience, the biggest factor in a successful system is a high quality installation, so make sure you work with a reputable company. If one of the refrigerant lines gets bent too sharply, you could have a leak on your hands that you won’t know about until its too late and possibly have to rip up all your walls to find it.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 4 months ago

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Thank you randolph.

randolph | 2 years and 4 months ago

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> @HomeInspector
> Randolph, how many actual pump units do yo have and how many air handlers? How many breaker slots did this take?

there are 6 indoor wall mounted air handlers and each has its own outdoor unit. i do not know how many breaker slots it took, the outdoor units are on two sides of the house each side with 3 and there is one electric box on each side that they are wired into. i did not have to upgrade my electric service, I believed they used the circuits from the old forced air system that was in the attic.