Flood and rent adjustment

Tenants who occupy brownstone duplex asked for rent adjustment due to the inability to use lower level again.
We gave them rent adjustment last year.
Last year we thought that since we did not have back flappers and roots were cloggin the sewage we might be responsible ( at leas partially).
The whole remediation ( last year) took 2 and a half week to do everything including flapper installation, pulling the floor, installing new tile, removing the 2 feet of sheetrock, mold prevention, etc.
We paid for everything ( around 28K, including rent reduction, tenants requested mold testing etc.).
Insurance had covered 20K that year.
Obviously, it did not cover rent adjustment and separate mold testing.

This year it took less then a week to do flood remediation.
they had flood by 11 am, we started cleaning, water removing by 11:30, pumped water coming from the back yard from the floor by 12:30 ( I have video from my contractor dated by 12:08 noon on this).
Then we did some wall openings, treated with anti-mold, air scrubber, funs and dehumidifiers.

Also, cleaners came the sam e night to disinfect the floor, mop and clean everything.
We told tenants that air crabbers and dehumidifiers with fans have to run at least a week, even if everything is clean and dry,
but they can start to use lower level ( it has office, one bedroom and laundry room and one full bathroom.

Tenants responded that they are not using lower level till we hire mold inspector.
( There was no visible mold before and after the flood, besides we did mold inspection last year and there was no mold found).
We hired mold inspector, he did wall dryness test and air samples a week after the flood.
He did not find any issues. So, tenants finally said that they are back to normal this weekend.
Now they are asking for rent reduction ( as usual).
But we think it was their choice not to use lower level for almost 2 weeks.
We do not want to do rent reduction this time.
We think whatever happened with a flood this time – we are not responsible.

Water that came from the backyard – we have the whole system – it was just too much of the rainfall, the main source was water from the roof backing up from the backyard drain ( that was a safety drain to backup roof gutter system) and coming over under the door from the backyard ( we also have a drywell inside to catch this water, also overfilled this time).

We do plan to install an additional sump pump in front of the backyard door ( when we figure out where this extra water should go, if roof to sewer is overloaded and all out backyard dry wells are overloaded too).
Do you think asking us for rent reduction this time is fair?

We did all the remediation work as fast as possible, paid for this, we did mold testing and paid $1260 only for the mold testing ( I looked at nyc regulation and I did not see that we will even have to do this unless there is an obvious mold problem).

lucie

in General Discussion 1 year and 6 months ago

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lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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We did not have any floods of this scale like the last 3 years in a row: 2021, 2022,2023.
I think an idea to use green board is good, I came with this idea by myself the first time we had flood in 2021 and remediation company said they have to cut 2 feet of sheetrock.
When we cut sheetrock we did replace part of the walls with green board.
What was deeply confusing is that I kept asking the same question 2 remediation companies ( in 2021 and in 2022) and mold inspector that our tenant hired in 2022 ( we only paid a bill, he did not find any mold).
Second company ( in 2022 flood) insisted to cut 2 feet down on the wall even if I said we have a green board and it could not harbor mold.
Later I have asked inspector was it necessary to cut a green board? He said that green board still possibly could harbor mold. Cement board? Also.

lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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We did not have any floods of this scale like the last 3 years in a row: 2021, 2022,2023.
I think an idea to use green board is good, I came with this idea by myself the first time we had flood in 2021 and remediation company said they have to cut 2 feet of sheetrock.
When we cut sheetrock we did replace part of the walls with green board.
What was deeply confusing is that I kept asking the same question 2 remediation companies ( in 2021 and in 2022) and mold inspector that our tenant hired in 2022 ( we only paid a bill, he did not find any mold).
Second company ( in 2022 flood) insisted to cut 2 feet down on the wall even if I said we have a green board and it could not harbor mold.
Later I have asked inspector was it necessary to cut a green board? He said that green board still possibly could harbor mold. Cement board? Also.

igorbalmeida | 1 year and 6 months ago

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The building science website that makes recommendations specially says to use cement board only not the green drywall. You have made accomodations in the past for this type of inconvenience. It sets a precedent even if the outcome is not entirely the same. You could compromise in the middle and say being that you ran the equipment for about a week. You would be willing to compensate them for that amount of time.

Guest User | 1 year and 6 months ago

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i can’t speak to the details of the legal requirements or the landlord/tenant relationship but I would recommend that instead of going back with sheetrock using greenboard or cementboard at the base of your walls so that you can fend off future questions about mold. if your walls are made of a non-absorbant or mold-resistant material you can more easily argue that the risk is very low of a mold condition existing.

Guest User | 1 year and 6 months ago

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i can’t speak to the details of the legal requirements or the landlord/tenant relationship but I would recommend that instead of going back with sheetrock using greenboard or cementboard at the base of your walls so that you can fend off future questions about mold. if your walls are made of a non-absorbant or mold-resistant material you can more easily argue that the risk is very low of a mold condition existing.

lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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I think it is rather 2nd version. We have pumped water in less then 2 hours since the top surge. and dried floors.
Sheetrock that might be affected is about 20% of the vertical surface that was touched by the water. We did sheetrock opening immediately and dried with dehumidifiers, fans and air scrubbers for a week.
Based on my experience from the similar flood and remediation company – they pump water cut sheetrock, look at visible mold traces, disinfect, spry with anti-mold
and run similar equipment for 2 days, then remove it from the site.
I can name at least 2 flood remediation company that we used over the years who did that and both removed an equipment after running for 2 and a half days.
The difference in condition was that when we used remediation companies – they came some time after the flood, like half a day after, so wetness stayed longer.
Also, it was sewage backup, it was before we installed back flaps.

This time we dried water in less then an hour and it was rain water.
And we run drying equipment for almost a week ( we got our own) – first 2 days arou nd a clock, like remediation company did, then we turned it on for several hours every day for the whole week and then called an inspector.
We were pretty confident that we should not have any mold harbored.
1. Last year in similar situation inspector came in a week, but active drying took only 2 days and inspector found no mold issues and all walls reading were good.
2. This year we run equipment even longer.

That is why we were pretty confident that area is usable and safe from mold in this period of time and it is not necessary to stay put and wait for air sample results.
Still we were ready to fix any issues if air samples will show a dangerous level of mold.

I have assembled state and city documentation that shows what are our responsibilities as landlords for mold remediation. What we did is way above any requirements. Mold has to exist to begin with.
We agreed with our tenants to adjust rent, but much less then they wanted initially.

lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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I think it is rather 2nd version. We have pumped water in less then 2 hours since the top surge. and dried floors.
Sheetrock that might be affected is about 20% of the vertical surface that was touched by the water. We did sheetrock opening immediately and dried with dehumidifiers, fans and air scrubbers for a week.
Based on my experience from the similar flood and remediation company – they pump water cut sheetrock, look at visible mold traces, disinfect, spry with anti-mold
and run similar equipment for 2 days, then remove it from the site.
I can name at least 2 flood remediation company that we used over the years who did that and both removed an equipment after running for 2 and a half days.
The difference in condition was that when we used remediation companies – they came some time after the flood, like half a day after, so wetness stayed longer.
Also, it was sewage backup, it was before we installed back flaps.

This time we dried water in less then an hour and it was rain water.
And we run drying equipment for almost a week ( we got our own) – first 2 days arou nd a clock, like remediation company did, then we turned it on for several hours every day for the whole week and then called an inspector.
We were pretty confident that we should not have any mold harbored.
1. Last year in similar situation inspector came in a week, but active drying took only 2 days and inspector found no mold issues and all walls reading were good.
2. This year we run equipment even longer.

That is why we were pretty confident that area is usable and safe from mold in this period of time and it is not necessary to stay put and wait for air sample results.
Still we were ready to fix any issues if air samples will show a dangerous level of mold.

I have assembled state and city documentation that shows what are our responsibilities as landlords for mold remediation. What we did is way above any requirements. Mold has to exist to begin with.
We agreed with our tenants to adjust rent, but much less then they wanted initially.

Archiefina | 1 year and 6 months ago

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In my view, it depends upon how much water entered. If it was enough for any reasonable person to be concerned with mold (meaning, the water actually rose high enough to saturate the floor and wall sheetrocking) then it wasn’t habitable until the remediation was done, and they rightly deserve a proportionate reduction (1/4 the month, noted above). If the water amount was less, and wouldn’t reasonably be thought to cause mold (and you only did the mold remediation to assuage their concerns, not because you actually thought there was mold potential), then it’s different. I would still discount them, because it’s the right thing to do, but something less. It doesn’t matter that you’ve done all you list above to avoid the problem, because the flood still happened.

lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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There could be many questions about the safety in services renting apartments.
Like if landlord is responsible for somebody breaking in if locks are or door us destroyed and robbers forced in.

lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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There could be many questions about the safety in services renting apartments.
Like if landlord is responsible for somebody breaking in if locks are or door us destroyed and robbers forced in.

colonialrevival | 1 year and 6 months ago

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You are running a business that is receiving money in exchange for rendering services. If those services are unable to be rendered by the business, or the safety of the services is called into question, it is only logical that the client not be billed for them.

lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Does everybody do mold test and rent adjustment after this kind of event? I have read extensively on NYC regulation.
Is it mandatory? What I saw was related to what landlord has to do if there are visible areas of mold.
Not our case. I am confused.

lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Does everybody do mold test and rent adjustment after this kind of event? I have read extensively on NYC regulation.
Is it mandatory? What I saw was related to what landlord has to do if there are visible areas of mold.
Not our case. I am confused.

colonialrevival | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Your tenants sound like reasonable human beings who wish to be certain of their safety in their home.

xuytbjicwnofjdde | 1 year and 6 months ago

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My two cents, putting my tenant hat on, I wouldn’t use the lower floor until I saw the results of the mold test either. Rent adjustment for two weeks just on the lower floor, so basically 1/4 month rent credit (if I understand correctly) seems reasonable to me, regardless of what is “technically legal” – all this assuming they are otherwise good and reasonable tenants.

lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Also, tenants refer to the part 9 of the lease: Fire, accident, defect, damage.
It says:
“If the Apartment cannot be used because of fire or other casualty, Tenant is not required to pay rent for the time the Apartment is unusable. If part of the Apartment cannot be used, Tenant must pay rent for the usable part. Landlord shall have the right to decide which part of the Apartment is usable.”
From our perspective ( landlord shall have a right to decide…) lower level was unusable during the flood day, and may be due to the constant running of drying equipment for another 2-3 days, not 2 weeks when they were waiting for mold inspection report to come though.
We could agree to rent reduction of half of the monthly rent ( half – because it is one floor of the duplex for 3 days).

lucie | 1 year and 6 months ago

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Also, tenants refer to the part 9 of the lease: Fire, accident, defect, damage.
It says:
“If the Apartment cannot be used because of fire or other casualty, Tenant is not required to pay rent for the time the Apartment is unusable. If part of the Apartment cannot be used, Tenant must pay rent for the usable part. Landlord shall have the right to decide which part of the Apartment is usable.”
From our perspective ( landlord shall have a right to decide…) lower level was unusable during the flood day, and may be due to the constant running of drying equipment for another 2-3 days, not 2 weeks when they were waiting for mold inspection report to come though.
We could agree to rent reduction of half of the monthly rent ( half – because it is one floor of the duplex for 3 days).