Finding the age of an extension

Hello all,
I’m renovating a townhouse in Queens, which has an extension (like every other one in the set). The house was built in 1945, and I’m optimistic that the extension was added fairly close to that time. Still, I need something to prove or disprove this.

After searching through the forum here, I’ve seen that people have looked at Sanborn maps or made requests to the DOB. I tried looking for Sanborn maps in the digital NYC library archives, but couldn’t find anything. I could use some help trying to figure out how to make a request on the DOB website. I saw these instructions (https://www.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/records_request_user_guide.pdf) but the
layout isn’t matching what I actually see on Building Information System Site (no big green buttons, for example).
Can anyone walk me through this?

ajseeste

in General Discussion 2 years and 2 months ago

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cate | 2 years and 2 months ago

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If old newspapers in the area are digitized, you can search them by address and find advertisements for your place or others in the row for sale or for rent. But your best bet is to look on the Sanborn maps for the area and years your row appears. If the extensions were original and on every house, they will very likely be shown on the maps. Re “zoomed out,” not sure what you mean. If you look at the maps online, you can zoom in and out to get a clear image. Old Sanborn maps are available in a wide variety of places, including NY Public Library.

jimhillra | 2 years and 2 months ago

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That tiny rectangle usually has a few letters and/or numbers, and in some cases might even be of a certain color. All of those pertain to specific information about your building (# of stories, basement, wood vs masonry, etc.). And that tiny rectangle is the most accurate representation you’ll find outside of actual plans on file with the DOB. If there’s an extension and it was filed with the city, then it would be shown on that map, as another adjoining rectangle (or whatever shape it may be), and it would likely have the number of stories listed separately from the main building. Here’s the key to the sanborns: http://www.historicalinfo.com/fimo-interpret-sanborn-maps/.

So if your house doesn’t show the extension, chances are that the city doesn’t know about it and you may need to legalize it.

All that said, we had a similar case a while ago, where every house on a block had identical extensions even though they were not on the maps. We photographed enoug h of the block to demonstrate this, and were able to convince the DOB that the map was wrong. It doesn’t happen often, but it does happen.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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i have more news for you. that house was built before 1945.

ajseeste | 2 years and 2 months ago

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As an update to this saga:
On Thursday evening, I figured out the DOB Now System and looked up Block and Lot for my house, requesting both the folder and Microfilm. That evening, DOB got back to me saying the records didn’t exist. I thought that was fishy, and since I had Friday off and the Queens DOB is close to me, I decided to go on a bureaucratic and archival adventure!

I went to the Queens DOB record room at opening, and was told by the (kind of surly) workers, that if there wasn’t a folder or Microfilm I was likely out of luck. They said the best I could do was get the Docket Books by adding the individual cases (like Alt ####/##) from the BIS search I had done, which I did, right there in the room, on my phone, much to their displeasure. They told me it would likely be a couple of days, so I went home. But while I had been puttering in the office, I met a friendly archivist who suggested the Queens Library central branch as the location for the Sanborn maps. Once home, I called the central location, spoke to the archivist, and he confirmed that the maps were phys ically there and on microfilm

Two hours later, I got an email reply form DOB Now saying my records were ready, and I hurried over before the office closed. I got the Docket books for some of my records…and yea, they aren’t helpful. It’s just a glorified log book. The writing is near illegible, and it’s not plans or drawings or anything useful…just start and stop dates and some other stuff. Nothing to answer the question ‘When was this extension built?’.

I then went to the Queens Library archives, and the Sanborn maps were there but unhelpful – they are so “zoomed out” that the house is just one tiny rectangle of many, not showing the addition of an extension. They also graciously gave me a few folders of Forest Hills news clippings, and I tried finding real estate ads, but nothing. It WAS cool to flip through the old clippings though.

So, that’s where I’m at.

ajseeste | 2 years and 2 months ago

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As an update to this saga:
On Thursday evening, I figured out the DOB Now System and looked up Block and Lot for my house, requesting both the folder and Microfilm. That evening, DOB got back to me saying the records didn’t exist. I thought that was fishy, and since I had Friday off and the Queens DOB is close to me, I decided to go on a bureaucratic and archival adventure!

I went to the Queens DOB record room at opening, and was told by the (kind of surly) workers, that if there wasn’t a folder or Microfilm I was likely out of luck. They said the best I could do was get the Docket Books by adding the individual cases (like Alt ####/##) from the BIS search I had done, which I did, right there in the room, on my phone, much to their displeasure. They told me it would likely be a couple of days, so I went home. But while I had been puttering in the office, I met a friendly archivist who suggested the Queens Library central branch as the location for the Sanborn maps. Once home, I called the central location, spoke to the archivist, and he confirmed that the maps were phys ically there and on microfilm

Two hours later, I got an email reply form DOB Now saying my records were ready, and I hurried over before the office closed. I got the Docket books for some of my records…and yea, they aren’t helpful. It’s just a glorified log book. The writing is near illegible, and it’s not plans or drawings or anything useful…just start and stop dates and some other stuff. Nothing to answer the question ‘When was this extension built?’.

I then went to the Queens Library archives, and the Sanborn maps were there but unhelpful – they are so “zoomed out” that the house is just one tiny rectangle of many, not showing the addition of an extension. They also graciously gave me a few folders of Forest Hills news clippings, and I tried finding real estate ads, but nothing. It WAS cool to flip through the old clippings though.

So, that’s where I’m at.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Dob NOW i think lists only newer stuff. Not sure what is going on there, if they will roll every thing over.

jimhillra | 2 years and 2 months ago

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If the house was never more than 2-family, it won’t have an I-card.

We use EDRNET.com to obtain Sanborn history reports. For about $150, and usually within a day, they’ll email you all of the Sanborn maps going back as far as 1880’s in some cases. The Sanborns will show roughly when the house was built and when the extension was added if it was filed. If it wasn’t filed, it may not show up on the Sanborns.

italianate | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Did you check the building’s icard? It may have the building layout from many years ago.

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OP: The instructions you link to are specifically for the DOB Now system, not BIS so that might be the hurdle you were running into. But yes as you noted the only real option for trying to find historic records is to request the paper files in person. There isn’t even a guarantee then that something exists or was properly kept in the correct folder, but I have found original blueprints and filings from the 1930s and 1940s this way.

Have you tried looking for any advertisements for your house for sale to see if an extension is mentioned? I find the Queens Library digitized collection a bit glitchy to search, but they do have a ton of images which might help and a small collection of digitized newspapers.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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that is how this goes with the on line system with many of these older (pre 1970’s) things. info is scant. really pre 1980’s. i used to manage a commercial building in the bronx and we needed all sorts of documentation for a pending c of o change and it was not on line (and the on line system was not the same as today – they faxed you a copy of it) and i had to go to the borough office and go through the file. we found what we wanted.

So usually when you do something you have to file, to get permits for that or to get them closed or to get a new c of o, everything has to be made legal. at least that is my experience. yes, if an inspector comes on your property and starts seeing stuff that was not filed or done correctly, you risk have them make an issue out of it.

if you email me the address this morning, i can look at the same thing you are looking at and see if i see anything different. can look at the c of o. but i live in a queens house and the file for mine is scant.

Steve
www.brownstonehomeinspeciton.com

ajseeste | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Hey @HomeInspector – at this point, we’re working with an architect/engineer to do renovations, which will be submitted to the city. Ive gone the BIS route and there isn’t anything really useful there. I can see in 1981 there was a “DOB VIOLATION – DISMISSED”, but I can’t actually see any details of what was filed and what the resolution was. The other items are weirdly undated – shown as 00/00/0000 and include things like “New building”, “Building Notice”, ” Plumbing repair slip” – they all include numbers (which I’m not posting here). Is there any way to look up what the details are for those cases?

Additionally, I don’t think this addition is recent – so I think I’m going to have to go to DOB and ask them to pull a file. We’re doing renovations any ways, and submitting to the city…so they’re going to see it regardless?

ajseeste | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Hey @HomeInspector – at this point, we’re working with an architect/engineer to do renovations, which will be submitted to the city. Ive gone the BIS route and there isn’t anything really useful there. I can see in 1981 there was a “DOB VIOLATION – DISMISSED”, but I can’t actually see any details of what was filed and what the resolution was. The other items are weirdly undated – shown as 00/00/0000 and include things like “New building”, “Building Notice”, ” Plumbing repair slip” – they all include numbers (which I’m not posting here). Is there any way to look up what the details are for those cases?

Additionally, I don’t think this addition is recent – so I think I’m going to have to go to DOB and ask them to pull a file. We’re doing renovations any ways, and submitting to the city…so they’re going to see it regardless?

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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There is less of that here in post 1920’s queens. That is more a brooklyn thing where the owners point down the back yards and say “they were built with them”.

cate | 2 years and 2 months ago

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If the entire row has the extensions, could they be original to the houses?

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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What i am saying about nyc dob bis is it is “intuitive” or self explanatory. No directions needed.

Be aware that for newer filings there is something called dob now.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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I am not sure what those directions say. There are no big green buttons on bis. Just go to bis. Enter your borough and address and hit the search button. Results will come back for violations, complaints, filings, jobs etc and look at those. The stuff on bis gets scant as you go back before the 80’s and 90’s. You can go to the dob and ask to see the building file. But i also suspect that as you move into the 1970’s and before a lot of extensions were installed without permits. If you go to the dob, i would not start by telling them what you are looking for because then they might realize you have something that was not properly filed and people get in trouble all the time for thirty year old alterations on these newer houses here in queens – the inspector will simply say “this is not how this was built” – as opposed to in 19th century brooklyn where it becomes harder to prove how something was built (a lot of extensions were put on as houses were built in brooklyn, according to the owners).

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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So sanborn seem to become less up to date after a certain point. I would google this “historic aerial photos” and see what you get. Some are in public collections at universities and others are for pay but you can always look for free.