exposing floor joists in a ceiling--can it ever be to code?

we are about to renovate, and will probably turn our 3-unit building into a triplex over garden rental… since we’re currently living in bottom two floors I’ve looked at our (low) garden level ceilings a lot, and I would love to expose the joists on the garden level, and add plaster in between, to give the space a homey feeling…. is that ever legal in New York? One architect we spoke to recently said no. I came here hoping for a different answer (I know) although I realize I may just have to let this go. thanks if anyone has more info on this.

slopegirl

in General Discussion 7 years and 4 months ago

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MDR | 7 years and 3 months ago

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The building code requires that dwelling units are separated from each other by fire rated walls and ceilings.
If the garden level is a separate unit (which I believe it is) then you need a fire rated ceiling to inhibit the spread of fire between units and you cannot legally expose the ceiling structure.
If the ceiling is between two levels of the same unit then you are free to do what you like.

eman134 | 7 years and 3 months ago

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personally,I love my beamed ceilings on my garden floor [IMG_2740](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s1/:brownstoner:5Rha:img_2740.jpg.jpg)

randolph | 7 years and 3 months ago

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put up a cheap drop ceiling, pass inspection, then take it down and do whatever you want.

beneec | 7 years and 3 months ago

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You can have exposed beams fire rated. A neighbor on our block did it. I *think* they got the rating by applying fire rated paint. I recommend talking to an expediter.

catboot | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Not a fan of the look (after all it’s a brownstone, not a barn). Aesthetics aside, I would imagine this has implications like others mentioned (sound insulation, fire insulation and so on).

BKALLDAY | 7 years and 3 months ago

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It’s a look and I have seen it represented on this same site and on other sites. However I believe that it is associated with a gut reno. The problem with older home is in many ways they do not meet the current code standards (ie, space between joists, load bearing capacity and don’t even get me started with trying to light up such a “dis assemble”). Also if a fire broke out it would tear through your home like a Downy Drier Sheet over an open flame. I have had to live through a simple reno where they opened up the ceilings and we had to live through the wait for the material to come in to insulate and redo the sheetrock. It was like living in Armageddon because one 135 years of fine silty dust rained down on us like you would not believe. SO. If it is what you want I am sure you can get it using modified material totally to code but IMO not worth the time or the hassle or the look. But do what makes you happy and be safe.

Guest User | 7 years and 3 months ago

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I would recommend speaking with an expediter directly. They tend to know codes in and out. I use Code LLC who are excellent. They typically need the address and, in your case, how the property is and will be laid out (among other things).

Not sure how receptive they will be to speaking directly with a client who hasn’t signed a contract with them but they are lovely and it’s worth a try.

randymcnally | 7 years and 3 months ago

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We just created a triplex over a garden rental (formerly duplexed) in old house from 1830’s. We considered keeping exposed beams in the garden level to make the ceiling feel a little higher and give it a look, but ended up fully sheetrocking it over because of sound issues between the apartments. We felt the extra insulation and full sheetrocking would help seal it off so-to speak. Also the costs were a lot more to try and sheetrock in between and hide with plumbing/wiring. There seemed to be no issues with code. Since the garden will eventually be a rental we felt it was the best move and also helped light carry through the apartment a bit more.

workisfun | 7 years and 3 months ago

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We installed level cleats, put up Roxul, and installed the B-side of 1/4 luan ply in most rooms, and painted 3/4 ply in the kids room. We love it and have gained about 6″. It’s the lower level of our duplex. And the low profile ul LEDs are perfect [IMG_3504](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:aLJY:img_3504.jpg.jpg) [IMG_3507](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:cefS:img_3507.jpg.jpg) [IMG_3508](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:kUEp:img_3508.jpg.jpg)

boerum-hill | 7 years and 3 months ago

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My 1845 Greek Revival Basement floor has shallowly exposed joists (along with an exposed stone wall) that look fantastic (and give us an extra few inches).

albertw | 7 years and 3 months ago

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We did it in our basement and (after a lot of work cleaning up the joists) it looks fantastic. However, even with plaster between the joists, the sound thing is no joke.

RobertGMarvin

in General Discussion 7 years and 3 months ago

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The beams in the middle parlor of my 1899 house are definitely fake.

NeoGrec | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Those Mission dining rooms generally feature much more massive beams than the floor joists found on the low-ceilinged lower ground floor.

chemosphere | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Isn’t a circa 1900 beamed dining room ceiling aka “Mission dining room” just “fake” joists?

NeoGrec | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Personally, I love the look. Have you considered attaching “fake” joists to your ceiling? It’s a much easier job than plastering inbetween each joist and would enable far superior sound isolation and presumably be compliant re. fireproofing regulations. It wouldn’t be hard to source some vintage wood with the right appearance and installation should be simple. Just a little creative cheating!

slopefarm | 7 years and 3 months ago

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LOL. Actually, the flipper who was (fraudulently, as it turned out) renovating our house (built ca. 1854-68) in advance of closing tried to convince us to let him off the hook on lighting the hallway and suggested, only half in jest, we should have candelabras in the stairwell and just carry candles up and down like they did in the old days.

We did a bit of preservation but did not go for a full-on historical restoration. My main beef with exposed joists is that they really mess with the light and the joists themselves are rough and I don’t like looking at them. I don’t like the look. To each his/her own of course but I do think some people think they are doing something historical by exposing them.

slopegirl | 7 years and 3 months ago

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I appreciate the warnings which are worth considering. We are not aiming for total historical accuracy or recreation and I definitely do not like most modern gut jobs on lovely old brownstones. I enjoy the old parts of our building where they have survived, although many details are long gone for us (fireplaces for example). That said I like the look of joists when there is plaster in between, and not just the exposed bottom of a wood subfloor… I agree that is too dark and probably too noisy also.

I do think exposed joists could be nice in a garden level kitchen where ceilings are low anyway. In my mind’s eye it would be just in the kitchen and dining space and could give the rooms a cozy and cottage-y charm.

I think the idea of partially undressing certain parts of the house to appreciate how it’s built and to give a glimpse of the history of the structure is valid. I can imagine a bit of exposed chimney in the garden floor kitchen in the same way.

It may not be possible for us even if fire code does allow because the triplex plan would involve adding a kitchen o n the parlor floor, and so I assume plumbing and gas lines that may be a problem regardless.

On the other hand, the front room ceiling in our garden level appears to be original and has an elaborate plaster crown molding which I really like and would never remove, but there’s also a thick picture frame type molding inside of that (sorry no idea the proper term), which I don’t think works with such low ceilings, so I don’t agree that any original features are necessarily the best design choices for a space.

chemosphere | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Jeez guys. Looking forward to hanging out in your original-state 1870s kitchens with a coal burning oven, water heater next to it, and an enormous soapstone laundry sink where you do all your laundry by hand.

slopefarm | 7 years and 3 months ago

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Sometimes in various styles and eras it was fashionable to show the beamwork. But typically in those cases, the beams would be boxed in with finish wood that was then painted or stained. Sometimes even adorned with moulding. But the wood used in the late 19th century for joists was not meant to be exposed.