Engineer woes

For our gut renovation we hired a structural engineering firm to provide guidance for modifying stairs, constructing a deck, and blowing out the back. They seem to be well regarded, but perhaps were not the best choice for a small job like ours. The plans were made without any site visit except an initial one (before we signed a contract, and before any demolition took place).

The plans for the basement stairs involve providing support from above, and are unworkable, since implementing them would require undoing quite a bit of plumbing (water and gas) that has already been completed and inspected. We asked them instead to draw up plans using a post but they never got back to us. They also never gave any rational for preferring their plan. (It seems they do not like to communicate with owners, or with general contractors, and our architect, who initially was enthusiastic about a post, soon reverted to “trust the professionals”.) Having reached an impasse, we have decided to abandon our plans to redo the basement stairs.

The plans for the stairs from first to seco nd floor involve removing two sound sistered joists and then replacing them. This seems to us an unnecessary expense. I have written the head person at the firm but have not had a response yet.

Is it professional for engineers to recommend removing joists they haven’t even looked at? What are our options? Could we (at the expense of paying twice for the same work) hire a different engineer just to deal with those stairs?

Thanks in advance for any insights.

Guest User | 3 years ago

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justinromeu26 | 3 years ago

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It really takes experience to learn all of this. The first time i had to manage a flood renovation on my own in 1990, i was nervous and conveyed that to my bosses with a lot of questions. Five years later and back in ny, i managed a fire restoration on 57th street and was able to take it on without hesitation.

Guest User | 3 years ago

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Certainly if we were doing this over, that’s where I would look.

justinromeu26 | 3 years ago

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For others reading this: sometimes small companies or individuals will give better service to homeowners, especially if residential is their bread and butter.

Guest User | 3 years ago

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It’s a company. They usually work on bigger projects, and seem to want to deal with architects not owners. But we wonder whether part of the trouble we are having is due to the architect who quit on us. Our GC thinks he bad-mouthed us to the engineers; don’t know if that is true. I do know that the architect sent to our expeditor and our GC copies of emails in which he accused us of not paying money we owed, and of not being willing to pay for expert advice. The first accusation was false and I could prove it; the second is open to interpretation – we didn’t accept all his ideas for the house and we didn’t want to sign a contract for full architectural services. Since I knew the expeditor and GC had received the emails, I sent documentation showing that we had paid all we owed; of course I didn’t write the engineers because I don’t know whether the architect complained about us to them or not.

In the case of the joists I seem to have been misinformed or I misconstrued things my husband told me – whatever the case, it seems the GC is on board with the architect’s proposal, and it won’t be as disastrously expensive as my husband had led me to think (he tends to be pessimistic).

hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years ago

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It’s also odd that the engineer is not speaking to you. That is not typical at all – there must be some reason for it. Is the engineer on their own or do they work for a firm?

justinromeu26 | 3 years ago

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I have only dealt with engineers in commercials settings and i suspect that because of the potential for an ongoing relationship, they were always very responsive to us.

someone like DIBS who is on here less seems to have been through a lot of renovation with a lot of professionals. i bet he can come on there and advise how responsive the engineer should be. others can answer.

justinromeu26 | 3 years ago

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Vard, you may have a valid point. When i worked in buildings each was unique in design and design proffessionals had to visit. If these pros are designing things with an attitude that it is a row house and once you have seen one you have seen them all, i think that is wrong and dangerous but not impossible or unrealistic for someone less cautious to attempt.

I would not attempt to do anything structural by photo. Way too risky. Dangerous.

When i had restoration contractor here, he was up and down looking at each joist.

I suspect personalities are at play here or the engineer feels he did his part and is done.

Guest User | 3 years ago

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Thanks, all. I think I’ll start by asking the architect to ask the engineer explicitly if he can devise a way to reinforce the joists. (One of the things that makes us unhappy with these engineers is their extreme reluctance to communicate directly with the owners or even the GC – maybe that is typical, I don’t know.)

hasibur.rahman07 | 3 years ago

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Just a thought. Not saying you are wrong to question. Maybe engineer knows based on the type of house, width of the building and typical joists that would be used.

I find it odd that he wouldn’t come look. Have you sent photos, videos and measurements to the engineer? Another course of action is to send photos to another engineer and get a second opinion.

justinromeu26 | 3 years ago

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Right ithaca. I don’t know all the answers myself and would never attempt to answer anything about anything structural on this board because not only am i not qualified, we have to look. I can tell you what i might do to a joist i might have a problem with in my house: i might get two pieces of plate steel the same size as the joist and drill holes in them along the top and bottom and sister the joist with them. I do not know if this is legal and i do not know what an engineer would say. I wish restoration contractor would chime in here.

You are asking questions and the right questions. Your job when managing any professional is to tell them what you want and let them explain to you why it can not be done. If they are experienced pros, you will have to accept their answer. You can research behind them but be careful not to argue a point with them when they are correct.

In so far as people not visiting the site and not talking to you. I am not sure what can be done about it now but personality conflicts often arise. In my case, i know enough about building construction to speak the language of the pros and to ask a lot of the right questions. Some people may not like that. when i source people i talk to them and let them see a bit of who i am so they understand i will have ideas that may or may not be right and that they are going to communicate back to me and tell me why i am wrong in a professional manner. If they cannot do that or if they look like they are turning red in the face and want to say f off, i know the relationship will not work.

If this were my house, i would be finding the answers myself by calling old contacts or reading a lot. I would literally call restoration contractor and tell him i need his help. I wonder if you can find a third party to pay to be YOUR rep. Btw, on larger projects in buildings, we had a rep, a paid consultant who made sure everyone was doing what they should be doing and not trying to bs us. You might consider hiring someone to be your rep to hold your hand. The issues sound more like management issues than anything else.

I am going to let restoration contractor about your querries here and see if he can respond.

Guest User | 3 years ago

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thank you – if we could go back in time we would. I know a lot more about what questions I should have asked before hiring an engineer. Our architect talked to the engineer last night (the engineer won’t talk to us) and reports he thinks the 2nd floor joists are undersized to support the stair. But how can he know this when he hasn’t seen them? And why couldn’t they just be sistered rather than replaced?

justinromeu26 | 3 years ago

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so now this. I fully agree that you need an engineer and i am looking at a similar issue here in my own house with a sagging floor and i am a contractor and when it comes time to do this, i am going to do the work myself. I would not touch anything structural without consulting an engineer, but i have worked with a lot of engineers and architects and as you have learned they are all smart but sometimes experienced more in some areas and limited in others (like ALL of us including us woodworkers and the lawyers and accountants and IT people reading this) and you really need someone willing to direct that work. this is what i have already done here in my house: i consulted a contractor who does this kind of work. i called Bill who appears on this board as RestorationContractor and got his advice. if i wanted to take a risk, i might have him do it or might do what he said without ever calling an engineer (i can’t do that because we have to live in this house and i have also seen some pretty shoddy looking iron work added to houses by less experienced people). but this is what you should do, talk to a contractor who does a lot of this and THEN consult an engineer. working backwards like this, you will have a plan in hand that you know the contractor says he can do, you just need the engineer to say that it can be done that way. you can also bring the two together on site and listen to what they have to say as the hash this out. we used to hire contractors all the time in buildings and bring the engineers on board with them. this may cost you more to do because there will be some back an forth with the engineer and truthfully, to ask a contractor to come in as a consultation like this may not be fair unless they are guaranteed the job (be willing to pay them for a few hours of their time if you are not sure you want to use them).

doorsby and homeinspector are the same person