DOB Questions

We are considering purchasing a house that has been in the same hands since it was built in the early 1900’s (passed on in the family). There is no C of O on file, and reno that has been done (including new electric wiring, and a move of a water line) was done w/o obtaining any permits: when you go on the DOB website all you see is “0”‘s… zero permits, zero violations (hurray for good neighbors). No walls or structural were done, only water / wiring / new windows etc.
My question: as I want to (legally) reno, how do I go about remedying the situation with the DOB?!
I know this has the potential of being a bottomless pit, however the asking was knocked down by 100K and I think it can be negotiated further being of how complex the issue is.
Any advice?

BlondAmbition

in General Discussion 7 years ago

11

Please log in, in order to post replies!

11 replies

Newest Oldest

yudashasom | 7 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4814 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4822 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "194528"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "yudashasom"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BKrcOOJj2qysH3kdOE3mMqxeyqPZ1m0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "yudashasom"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(20) "yudashasom@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:07:32"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(29) "Dasha Sominski Dasha Sominski"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(194528)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

@johnbk, i have no doubt that you got proper permits, but they always, 100% of the time, show up on BIS or DOB Now. you’re probably just not looking in the right place.

Guest User | 7 years ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "195579"

@johnbk – that doesn’t make any sense. a permit has to be associated with the address where the work is being done. the contractor’s licensing information is required but they can’t just get a permit for work without it being located somewhere. perhaps your house has multiple addresses or something else weird is going on with the info but if a permit is pulled for your property it will appear on the BIS system.

Guest User | 7 years ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "195579"

@johnbk – that doesn’t make any sense. a permit has to be associated with the address where the work is being done. the contractor’s licensing information is required but they can’t just get a permit for work without it being located somewhere. perhaps your house has multiple addresses or something else weird is going on with the info but if a permit is pulled for your property it will appear on the BIS system.

johnbk | 7 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4833 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4867 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "182539"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(6) "johnbk"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BkXIquDUYPpU258LGf0b754FYd7Tbv/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(6) "johnbk"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "johnredmann@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 13:27:51"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(6) "johnbk"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(182539)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

I would also add that I’ve kept all copies of the permits for my own records in the event that something does go wrong, or when I sell in the future to prove to the next buyer that the work was permitted.

johnbk | 7 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4812 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4813 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "182539"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(6) "johnbk"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BkXIquDUYPpU258LGf0b754FYd7Tbv/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(6) "johnbk"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "johnredmann@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 13:27:51"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(6) "johnbk"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(182539)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

sorry no-permitz I’ve had gas work, electrical, and plumbing done all permitted under the respective contractors lic, and it never showed up on my home or on DOB. I’ve had inspectors AT MY HOUSE, and permits taped in my windows. So I’m 100% certain you’re wrong.

soundhoner | 7 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4878 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5070 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "185056"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B.MX0wo9RmF5R6Z7AhcVRbEkIHWysR0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(16) "okadat@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 13:28:03"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(10) "soundhoner"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(185056)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

This question comes up over and over again on this forum – and that’s not surprising. My personal experience (as an owner who knows a lot of other owners) is that many (most?) are avoiding permitting when doing internal renovations even if they’re doing plumbing and electricals (which is technically illegal). Think about it – if you have a 50-75K budget to bring one floor up to date so you can rent it out, do you want to add 2-3 months of waiting for a permit, 10K of architect and permitting fees, and not to mention the straight up uncertainty around which inspector you’ll get and how critical he/she might be? Any house from the 19th century will be riddled with uncertainty and potential violations if one cares to find them. Moreover, if one were to only purchase houses with permitted renovations, there’d be even less inventory for these buyers in an already tight market.

The DOB permitting system is pretty broken unless you’re a large-scale professional landlord with a staff to support you.

yudashasom | 7 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4813 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4833 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "194528"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "yudashasom"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BKrcOOJj2qysH3kdOE3mMqxeyqPZ1m0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "yudashasom"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(20) "yudashasom@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:07:32"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(29) "Dasha Sominski Dasha Sominski"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(194528)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

@johnbk, that’s false. i have never ever seen a permit/filing not show on BIS, or DOB Now.

johnbk | 7 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4812 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5068 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "182539"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(6) "johnbk"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BkXIquDUYPpU258LGf0b754FYd7Tbv/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(6) "johnbk"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "johnredmann@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 13:27:51"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(6) "johnbk"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(182539)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Plumbers and Electricians pull permits in their names/business names and the permits pulled wouldn’t show up on your home. I know this because I’ve had both done and recieved copies of the permits + met inspectors/utility co’s. And it never showed up on the DOB website for the aforementioned reason. When I asked my plumber about it, he said it had to do with filing a lien in the event of non payment.

Non-trade work would usually show up on a DOB permit search, but again it depends on what the work is.

Guest User | 7 years ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "198887"

Two notes from the DOB CO factsheet at:
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/buildings/homeowner/certificate-of-occupancy.page :

1. Buildings constructed before 1938 aren’t required to have a CO unless certain changes were made. You could go through the DOB to get a Letter of No Objection, or perhaps ask the seller to do so, if you want to documentation that the building is up to code.

2. In general if you’re doing renovations that affect egress, number of rooms, or a few other items, I believe you may have to update (or in this case have issued) a CO that reflect these changes.

JPDA | 7 years ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5072 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4852 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "56403"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(4) "JPDA"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BiWdScBcVKNUx17QIIU4sn7IP2iP7.1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(4) "JPDA"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(15) "jordan@jpda.net"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(19) "http://www.jpda.net"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2010-06-16 19:38:18"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(20) "m6JyCk05FZh9ArG2sf3X"
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(4) "JPDA"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(56403)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

If you are not changing the use or occupancy and are performing an interior-only renovation you should not encounter any issues due to the previous un-permitted work. If there is an illegal extension, illegal usage or non-compliant electrical or plumbing that you are not planning on fixing then you will be in for a DOB smackdown.

Guest User | 7 years ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "198362"

Having previous work done on the house without permits is very common in these old houses; if the DOB spent time hunting everyone down who did this they would get nothing done. If there are no violations you should be good. When you submit your application for the permit, it’s more likely they won’t catch it – as long as your new renovation does not present any issues. Be aware that the work done is likely out of date and against code, depending on who did the work, so if you make any alterations to these areas you will need to bring them up to code. The C of O is another story.