Do You Like Original HW Floors--Even if they Sag?
Forgetting about price, what do you think of original hardwood floors? In this case, 3″ heart of pine, top-nailed. In addition, it’s sagging. They are higher near the front and back of the house and sag in the middle, like a hammock. Maybe 4 inches total. Gradual, but noticeable.
We are totally new to this area, and it’s scary. But our architect and realtor say it’s par for the course here. (The architect caveated that most people would fix this in a gut reno, but these people renovated and opted not to. Too late for us to fix after the fact.) And some people even like this. Is this your experience?
Would you spend 2+ million on a house with original floors that sag? Oddly enough, the sellers did renovate everything else. 200 amp electrical , new plumbing, nice kitchen, new molding adn woodwork, bathrooms, etc.
Guest User | 8 years and 5 months ago
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decodeddreams | 8 years and 4 months ago
If the joists are sagging, that implies something is wrong structurally. Typically, you want to determine what is causing the sagging and how pressing of an issue it is. Will the issue continue to get worse over time? You should probably have a structural engineer look at the home to determine the cause of the sagging. You can remove and reinstall the original flooring. The question is what to do with the joists underneath. Do any require replacement? Can they be corrected? If not, can you sister off of them to achieve a level floor? Best of luck! Richard | Manhatta Architecture, P.C. http://www.manhatta.net
decodeddreams | 8 years and 4 months ago
If the joists are sagging, that implies something is wrong structurally. Typically, you want to determine what is causing the sagging and how pressing of an issue it is. Will the issue continue to get worse over time? You should probably have a structural engineer look at the home to determine the cause of the sagging. You can remove and reinstall the original flooring. The question is what to do with the joists underneath. Do any require replacement? Can they be corrected? If not, can you sister off of them to achieve a level floor? Best of luck! Richard | Manhatta Architecture, P.C. http://www.manhatta.net
dorkofwindsor | 8 years and 4 months ago
Old Growth Pine was extremely desirable and nearly deforested around 1900. If thats what you have it has value, even if you don’t prefer it (personally not my cup of tea). So you should determine what you have so you don’t just give away FYI, a contractor once told me that they always laid joists green and wet (mine are doug fir), so sag was an inevitability. I haven’t seen a house around here whose floors didn’t sag unless they were either shimmed or sistered. Its a big job but always best done in a large reno. Also, don’t be scared, I also had a structural engineer over and he said that 20′ joists are totally sufficient load wise, and things like stiffening walls and structural partitions were for “sag preference” only. So even though you can feel an obvious bounce these floors were fine if they are not cracked or infested with wood boring pests.
deanbh | 8 years and 4 months ago
Shimming is the only way to fix this permanently eg here are photos of our contractor fixing ours
– http://www.collins.net.pr/Photo/House%20photos/135%20Henry%20St%2C%20Brooklyn/2.%20Construction%20Phase/slides/2008_11140015.htm
alicecfoster
in General Discussion 8 years and 5 months ago
Fixing joist sag in a newly-renovated house is not a small thing – it will probably require replacing your floors and the ceilings below, and many of the partitions (essentially a gut reno). If this is a row-house, your joists probably run from party wall to party wall – sometimes full-span, sometimes there’s an intermediate supporting wall. My concern would not be long-term sag (part of old-house charm!), but rather that something was done in the renovation (or a prior renovation) that was unwise, perhaps removing columns in the cellar or taking out a bearing wall. The usual signs of structural problems like cracking plaster and brick might have been covered up. If you want peace of mind, you could get a 3rd-party architect or engineer to evaluate the structure.
alicecfoster
in General Discussion 8 years and 5 months ago
Fixing joist sag in a newly-renovated house is not a small thing – it will probably require replacing your floors and the ceilings below, and many of the partitions (essentially a gut reno). If this is a row-house, your joists probably run from party wall to party wall – sometimes full-span, sometimes there’s an intermediate supporting wall. My concern would not be long-term sag (part of old-house charm!), but rather that something was done in the renovation (or a prior renovation) that was unwise, perhaps removing columns in the cellar or taking out a bearing wall. The usual signs of structural problems like cracking plaster and brick might have been covered up. If you want peace of mind, you could get a 3rd-party architect or engineer to evaluate the structure.
NeoGrec | 8 years and 5 months ago
Here’s a possible solution: when we renovated, the floor joists on the top floor needed repair so we had to pull up the old pine floors. When the floor boards were laid back down, our contractor put a layer of plywood underneath them. The plywood created a strong, stable surface for reattaching the boards. Almost 20 years later, these floors are still rock solid.
cate | 8 years and 5 months ago
With 3 inch wide boards, the house and the floor are probably early 19th century and worth saving even at the expense of straight floors. To find out what it causing the issue will require opening up the ceiling below the sag. Which floor is sagging? Or are they all? For example, the joists could have fallen out of the pockets in the middle of the house, and the solution would be to brace them from falling further and sister to provide a level support for the floor boards. (We are doing this in a hall on the garden floor and we are saving our floor boards.) One option would be to discuss with an architect and/or engineer who works a great deal with early 19th century houses in such areas as Brooklyn Heights. They may have a pretty good guess and can give you an idea of the scope and expense. But chances are it’s not worth ruining the house (or the cost) to correct.
obama | 8 years and 5 months ago
joists sag over time. i would bet anything that this is the issue. if they just slapped a new floor and new floor boards on top of older joists without sistering them then your floor will sag.
BobMarvin | 8 years and 5 months ago
I refinished my original hardwood floors 43 years ago and have never regretted it. They’re beautiful and worth a bit of squeaking. The only floor I replaced was in my kitchen, but that was just refinished pine sub-flooring that was splintering. I replaced that a year, or so, ago. It doesn’t squeak now (which somehow seems strange, since I got used to the sound in the rest of the house).
freespirit | 8 years and 5 months ago
I personally regret not replacing the floors. It bothers me that they squeak and we also have a slope in them due to structural issues (we did reinforce the basement). I wanted to keep something original but looking backward I should have replaced them when doing the renovation. I was thinking that even doing them in 5-10 years would be a major problem as we would have to remove all the furniture and move out of the house – definitely not happening.
EJR | 8 years and 5 months ago
I have original floors in my house with a beautiful parquet/key pattern (like this: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EsakRHRMBYA/WA4gpZPFcYI/AAAAAAAABmM/-oZZuiVhPHA0QH3VJcvpVMEsDBs6L8pBQCLcB/s1600/parquet-border-inlay-pattern-restoration-thickness-detail.jpg) which we simply refinished as part of our large, but not gut reno. There is definitely some sagging on our third floor. Our home inspector said the sagging could be due to the fact that pressure treated wood was not used when the house was constructed and the wood warps over time. For what it’s worth, the posts and beams in the basement are structurally sound. We chose not to replace the floors and would really miss the look of the old wood if we did. If the sagging gets worse and/or becomes a structural issue, we will obviously need to address it then, but for now we are happy. We also redid the bathroom and created a laundry room where there was an old kitchen. In those areas we replaced/sistered all the joists and those room are level and feel rock solid 2 years in.
hkapstein | 8 years and 5 months ago
+1 slopefarm. I grew up in a house that had old growth timber floors, and there’s really nothing like them. Replacing with new won’t look the same, and really changes the feel of the room, so I understand why the previous owners did what they did.
A structural repair is needed, and most contractors will recommend a new shimmed up floor, possibly with minor joist repairs sistering. But the floor will sag again in 5-10 years, and the contractor will probably sell your old floor for a bundle as reclaimed wood. The structure needs to be jacked up and supported(headers or posts), or the floor could be carefully taken up and reinstalled with new joists, rated for the span. Homeowner would need to do some research and proceed judiciously, but it would probably be a reasonable cost on a 2m+ property if the floors are very bad. Houses with no major issues tend to go for a little more, so you might have to up the budget a little if you want something that’s totally good to go.
slopefarm | 8 years and 5 months ago
re-reading the original post, it sounds less like the sagging is a floorboard issue and more like a house settling issue. Even in a pre-code house, the joists aren’t going to be more than about 20″ apart on center. It doesn’t sound like you have sagging between the joists, but that the middle of the house, joists and all, is sagging relative to the front and back. If that is the case, replacing the floors won;t solve the issue.
robertbullock | 8 years and 5 months ago
If it’s really heart of pine, though, it’s comparable to oak. Consider yourself lucky. Our house didn’t even have floors!
slopefarm | 8 years and 5 months ago
If it is pine, it is not hardwood. Pine is relatively soft. It can look quite nice, homey, old fashioned, a warm look. We have wide plank pine flooring and wouldn’t dream of replacing it with new hardwood, but you have to accept the dents, scratches, etc. If you like the look, keep it.
For the sagging, you can pull up and save pieces in the area that sags and add blocking between the joists. It might just mean your house predates the 1880 building code and the joists are far apart, or it could mean there has been some settling or damage to the joists. Open up the ceiling under the sagging sections and have a look as to what is going on.
If you can afford a $2m house, you can afford to solve whatever the flooring issues are.