Dilemma: Where to put units in ductless/ducted mini split in brownstone.
We’re renovating a four-story Clinton Hill townhouse and putting in a ductless (?) split system, about two per floor, big flock of condensers on the roof. We’re not completely gutting and there are lots of nice details and plaster left that we hope we can retain; we’re not huge preservationists but love an old house, high ceilings (ours are 11 feet in the parlor floor) and plaster and don’t want to make a drywall box.
Our architects have been very conscientious about not having the things hanging on the wall and finding places to hide them. Unfortunately that often means dropping part of a ceiling. On the top and bottom (rental apartment) floors we’re dealing with it. The biggest problem is the parlor front room where there’s an entryway and then a big opening to the living room.
The options are as follows:
1. lower the ceiling in the front entry hallway and put it in there. 2. squeeze it into the coat closet we are building at the end of the front entry hallway. or 3. build it into one side of a floor unit within a custom cabinet under one of a pair of bookshelves we’re having flank our fireplace. The radiator for the room will go on the other side of the bookshelf in an identical cabinet, apparently.
#1 freaks me out. It was our architects’ first suggestion but I don’t want to lower the lovely high ceiling in the entry hall even the required one foot. There are few unaltered parts of this home and the parlor is the best of them. #2 is a concern because that closet is actually the only closet we have on the entire floor for the entry hall, kitchen and living room, ugh. #3 sounds good to me, but I’m wondering what the cons are. I don’t need to hide radiators as long as they are painted nicely, but i don’t mind radiator covers. Can you think of any reason not to put one of the units in a floor box in the LR? If anyone has any advice, please help! Yet another decision in the renovation to drive me over the edge…
cityrat
in General Discussion 8 years ago
15
Please log in, in order to post replies!
15 replies
slopefarm | 8 years ago
BSD, whatever “most buyers are paying” IS the market. Re-read my previous post. Bank financing for renovation is not based on “confidence” in the market’s future. It is based on the value added by the renovation to the house itself based on present day market values as evidenced by comparable sales that closed.
hickorychip | 8 years ago
@slopefarm but most new buyers are paying over market so wouldn’t giving someone 500k in additional money be a huge risk? Where does the confidence come from?
slopefarm | 8 years ago
The “guess” is not about future appreciation – i.e. how much the market will go up. The appraisal is based on current comps of fully-renovated homes based on recent sales. A newly renovated house is worth more on the market than the same house as a fixer-upper precisely because if you are buying a reno you have to think of what it will cost you to fix it up. The reno therefore adds value to the house by improving it. Presumably, if you buy a house in need of a reno, you have not paid as much as the house would be worth after reno. Does that make sense? Of course, if the market tanks after you reno, and you used that equity to borrow the reno costs, then you will end up under water.
hickorychip | 8 years ago
@slopefarm Appreciate the reply. I don’t get how the Bank can guess that the house will appreciate so much, when these areas not that long ago were redline by the banks. I also notice that long time home owners who have homes paid off do not seem to have access to the same renovation capital even though it’s the same type of homes in the same areas. Is their lending institutions that a geared more toward these kind of endeavors?
slopefarm | 8 years ago
BSD, I think what you are seeing is the difference between renovations by long-term homeowners and by new buyers. A long-time owner, who bought when the neighborhood was far more affordable, probably did not have the cash to do a whole house reno, and probably would not want to move out for months on end, or stay put and tolerate the chaos, while the reno happened, so they worked piecemeal, either from savings or from equity as it accumulated (borrowing against the equity). A new buyer has a chance to do everything all at once, which is a big cash outlay but more efficient than working piecemeal, particularly if you are replacing mechanicals that have not been touched in a century. Alas, you are also seeing, of course, gentrification, and it is moving pretty fast these days.
A new buyer in these areas is going to be someone in a position to buy a $2 million plus house. They will have the means and the inclination to do the reno all at once before they move in. Where do they get the money? One or more of several possibilities. 1. They earn a ton — perhaps two incomes, lawyer, doctor, wall street, take your pick. 2. Savings (could be family savings, inheritance etc. 3. Equity built up in prior home before sale, a manhattan co-op apartment, perhaps. They don’t need all the profits from the sale to cover the down payment, so they put the rest into reno. 4. Anticipated equity. If the house need a reno, the purchase price reflects that. If they can borrow to finance s $2 million home, thy can probably borrow another $400k for the reno. The lender will do it if the loan to value ratio supports it, based on what the appraiser thinks the house will be worth post reno, though this was easier to do before 2008, I imagine.
We did a combo of 3 and 4 above, though our coop was in Brooklyn. We did it all in 2004-06, back when the price scale was significantly lower. And, I can tell you from experience, that a whole house reno just does not get done over a summer. It takes many more months than that, but you are right that it is not piecemeal over many years.
I hope this helps.
hickorychip | 8 years ago
@slopefarm How long have you lived in your area because if it’s been for a significant amount of time you will see the difference. Homes in Bedstuy, Crown Heights, Fort Greene, etc were renovated over time, piece by piece not 4 stories of new home in a summer. My question is a serious question, where is everybody getting money to do these massive projects? These renovations are often happening before equity is even built up.
slopefarm | 8 years ago
BSDoD — Are you trolling? It is absurd to think whole house renovations are getting done within a few weeks. You are either exaggerating or don’t understand what you are seeing. Also, you do realize this is a site where people discuss, among other things, renovations, right? Where do people get the money? Some have it, some are in a position to borrow it. We renovated more than a decade ago. We had enough equity to finance a renovation, and, barring a crash, we have more equity now.
dmcsr71 | 8 years ago
Putting them into the top of a built in cabinet sounds like the best idea. As for the rental unit – why bother? Most tenants are happy just to have good AC and wont be baulking at an exposed unit. For our house we put 3 smallish air handlers into 3 rooms and placed them in “unobtrusive” spots – above doorways for example. We didn’t make any box or soffits for them. After a few weeks you kind of get used to them and barely notice them. This may not sound ideal but I’d prefer a streamlined plastic box on one small part of the wall vs lowering the entire ceiling. And lets face it, boxing them in is still making a big drywall box to hide a smaller plastic box. BTW ensure you can still use the remote as most use infrared – like your TV remote.
hickorychip | 8 years ago
This posting is about ductless systems but the links provided are for ducted systems, why? Also where do you people get all this money to do these entire property renovations? I’ve heard stores about homes in Clinton Hill, Bedstuy, etc taking 2 decades to renovate but what I see is entire homes getting renovated in a couple of weeks.
slopefarm | 8 years ago
another,
We have the Unico system. the advantage is you can thread a lot of the ducts in between the walls without the need for soffets. And the vents are 2″ round holes.
You do hear a steady whisper. You also get a louder whisper close to the air handlers. the trick is the air handlers take up space and need a few large ducts from which the mini ducts branch off. So there will be a few soffets and you want to be careful not to place the air handler too close to anyplace where you want quiet.
ebp | 8 years ago
I haven’t installed it yet myself but I understand it is very quiet with an occasional “whoosh” – that’s the “high velocity” part. My cousins have it and love it. Also, others on this forum so it is worth searching for other comments.
Here are some more websites to check out:
https://www.unicosystem.com/download_file/view_inline/881/301/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwEauxfQ_tQ
https://www.oldhouseonline.com/articles/easy-hvac-retrofit-for-old-houses
I promise I don’t work for them! I just have this on my reno wish list and it absolutely seemed like the right option for us. I just can’t get over how expensive and UGLY the mini-splits are. So not worth it in my book. But definitely do your own research. Hope this was helpful! – Emily
anotherposter | 8 years ago
epb, what’s the noise like from that system?
ebp | 8 years ago
https://www.unicosystem.com/
Can learn more on this website
ebp | 8 years ago
Hi,
We looked into the same system for our 3 floor brownstone. I was thinking they would be cheaper than central air and wouldn’t require the same level demo/construction. However, I was appalled by the price I got quoted ($40k) and worse, they are still ugly as heck – sticking out of the wall, etc.
I started doing some research and through This Old House, I learned about the High Velocity AC system, Unico, that they use in all the historic register houses. It is central air but is essentially snaked through the walls (super thin, flexible tubing) and you get tiny little “vents” that blow the air out and you barely see. Plus, you have the consistent temperature that central air offers. If found a guy in Staten Island who could do it for for the same price as the mini-splits.
I think you should consider this option!
Good luck! Emily
renoishard2 | 8 years ago
I think I have the same system installed. Units are totally hidden, see only a small vent grille, right? Not a big, white Mr Slim unit hanging off the wall?
What kind of architect would propose #1? Terrible idea. He / she has to try a little harder.
Our BR level was easy. In each BR, in a closet, sealed box, hatch access underneath.
On parlor level, 1 unit for LR and 1 unit with ducts to KI and DR. We dropped the ceiling of the KI (our KI is “closed”, has a wall separating from DR, its not an “open” KI) and put both units in ceiling. Used “Stealth” panel for access (brand for pre-fab panels, I can recommend). It works.
Our thought was you’ll miss the full 11′ height least in the KI. I think this can work even if you have an open KI / DR, but may need some part of partition from LR.
Good luck.