Design Build Firm vs Architect - Contractor Combo ?
I’ve heard ppl say that you should make sure the architect and contractor are completely independent of one another.
Ant particular reason?
Thinking of using a design build firm who claim to do it all, but trying to research if this is a good idea
crhorsken
in General Discussion 8 years and 11 months ago
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patrickburnsjr | 8 years and 10 months ago
very simply, for smaller capital improvement brownstone projects, hire a contractor who has a long track record with a structural engineer (or architect) in the neighborhood known to be an honest team.
c_w | 8 years and 11 months ago
I’ve worked in architecture, contracting and design-build for 20 years. Here are my two cents to add to the comments already made.
Both approaches have their pros & cons and both approaches come in all shapes and sizes. Regardless of which one is used, what’s important to understand is the extent of services needed for the project versus the extent of services one is buying. Second, the level of experience of the both the contractor and architect is also a critical part of the equation.
What makes for a smooth sailing project is proper preparation before construction starts, proper coordination after construction starts and experienced guidance throughout. Unfortunately the value of full architectural services as well as the advantages of an architect-contractor team that has done multiple jobs are often overlooked.
Frequently architectural services become reduced to the bare minimum of filing plans and construction is performed by unskilled day laborers. Most of the time, it’s budget constraints that lead to this kind of expediency which is understandable but sometim es it’s lack of information.
To recap, the obvious pros of separate architect and builder are independent checks and balances, perhaps better design development and perhaps more rigorous construction administration. However, if you are not buying full architectural services but only filing plans then the benefits of this approach are severely reduced.
The obvious pros of design-build are dialogue and coordination between the architect or designer and contractor from the get go. This leads to a more accurate grasp of budget during design and more streamlined construction. However, to what degree these advantages will manifest themselves will depend on a couple of factors. Is the design created in-house or subbed out? How comprehensive are the drawings? Are any of the construction trades performed by employees or is everything subbed out?
Whichever approach one picks, these details are important to consider.
pythagoras | 8 years and 11 months ago
As an architect, I think that particularly for small projects like renovations, the design build model is the way of the future. Too often we have adversarial relationships between owner, architect, and contractor, instead of working together to create a quality project and set budget expectations and project performance expectations, and foreshadow issues instead of looking for the holes in documents and adding up the extras before starting. There’s also a time advantage, in that a complete set of documents doesn’t have to be produced immediately, but instead a minimal set for DOB review and budgeting purposes. That said, there are not many D/B firms out there with long track records. I would recommend my competition, Design With Prospect, but I understand that they have ceased to exist. (talking myself out of business here…)
slopefarm | 8 years and 11 months ago
IMHO, if you are doing any serious structural or mechanicals work, you are better served by an architect who is independent of the GC and with whom you sign a separate contract. You can and should pick both an architect and GC (the architect will help you review bids, interview GCs and pick) and trust them both, but end of the day the architect is your professional eye on the job (not every day but at critical points) to make sure everything critical is done right. If you are doing something more modest — kitchen/bath reno moving a bit of plumbing around, etc., the need for this independence is attenuated somewhat.
agdipierro
in General Discussion 8 years and 11 months ago
Design/Build is a catch-all term. Many design/build firms are actually just contractors who then subcontract with the least expensive and most convenient architect who represent their interests, not yours. I recommend following the American Institute of Architects protocols for Design/Build and using an AIA Contract for your agreement with your design/builder. Contact me offline if you would like to discuss this further.
hmcghee | 8 years and 11 months ago
carmenR, are you okay to provide the names of the people you are using and happy with? Thanks.
chinyere.ezie | 8 years and 11 months ago
As a GC with over 20 years experience working with both formats they both have there pros and cons.
Pros:
In the design built format where a Architect works with a preferred contractor they collaborate closely on the overall budget and scope of the project. This means as the project is being designed by the client and Architect the contractor is following closely behind providing budgeted pricing. This gives a idea to the client at any given time approximately how much they have spent. The advantages of this is even though the client may not have divulged the exact amount they want to spend it gives them the option of either going forward or cutting back before a tremendous amount of time and money has been spent on construction drawings and architectural fees.
Another advantage is often the contractor can offer cost savings on inspecting the property beforehand and mentioning the roof is good for another 10 years and the boiler may have 8 years left and instead of replacing windows they can be refurbished etc. etc. Some of my clients in the past decide to provide the budget upfront so at that time is when the Architect and contractor will sit down with the client and start listing the work they would like to have performed in order of priority . When that priority list is complete and if there is still funds left over then you move on to your wish list.
Cons:
The Architect and contractor comes as a package. Personality wise if you like one but not the other it can lead to conflict through the project. Of course if you like the Architect and not the contractor you can ask the Architect to bring another contractor for you to interview.
Architect generally like to work with contractors they have a history with so if the client wants to use a contractor they have not worked with it may lead to conflict and inaccurate budget pricing.
Separate Architect / Separate GC.
Pros:
The hired Architect becomes your representative and creates the drawings and design based on what your requirements are. Costing and budgeting is generally not the Architects forte so on completion of the drawings they will put it out to bid with up to four contractors or any contractor of your choosing.
You will now have a variable of pricing from low to high with some middle numbers.
The Architect will help you in deciphering the different numbers from the contractors and set up meetings with the contractors for you to interview. Ultimately the hiring of the contractor is left up to the owner with the Architects input.
Cons:
The drawings are complete and out to bid, the numbers come back and boom the budget is blown. You wanted to spend $ 400K and the numbers are coming back at
$ 600K. Now it is time to slash and burn, what do you want to give back, remove from the scope of work to make the budget work Most Architects work on a flat fee or a percentage of construction costs so if they have to go back and redesign the additional labor for redesigning is coming out of their fee so on occasion the redesign could suffer or the attention to detail may be lacking.
Naturally after redesign it will have to go out to bid again and so starts the merry go round A normal bidding and selection process takes about 4-5 weeks so a lot of time and energy can be expended. especially if you have to go a couple of rounds.
Regardless of which method you use,home construction can be a harrowing and stressful experience so choose you Architect and contractor carefully and when it is all said and done it will be a rewarding result
In my 20 years in the business I always found we could give the biggest bang for the buck using the design built method.
Good luck with your project !
crhorsken | 8 years and 11 months ago
Thanks everyone !
mmontana.la | 8 years and 11 months ago
We are a gc, yet are big fans of any integrated approach between architect and contractor. As a matter of fact the New York Building Congress did a panel exploring AIA’s (American Institute of Architects) system called Integrated Project Delivery. Check out this column we wrote recently: http://www.construction-today.com/sections/columns/2696-is-ipd-always-the-answer
Also keep in mind that not all design build involves a locked in delineated group. A lot of architects bring in particular gcs for particular jobs. Bottom line: In so many cases, even small projects come out better when a contractor can contribute to or capitalize on the architect’s preliminary drawings and both parties make suggestions and as a team. I can’t tell you how many times we found that collaboration, or at least a heads up on the big picture, keeps the budget on track, picks up planning flaws and cuts down on expensive change order surprises.
CarmenR | 8 years and 11 months ago
We hired a gc that actually runs a design build firm, but we already had an architect and kitchen designer so we are “just” using them for construction.
We have been very happy with the results of our project. Because they have experience working with a lot of designers and other architects, they brought some really great solutions and ideas that our architect had not thought of. Our architect is also great, but having a crew with lots of experience in high end renos (higher than ours!) meant we are getting great quality and design suggestions without spending the same fortune as some of their other projects.
My husband and I are not in the industry and have very frequently not immediately known the answer to a variety of aesthetic choices. The vast majority of the time we lean towards with the suggestion of the gc and our pm and we have been pleased every single time. We trust them greatly and I don’t think we would have gotten the same feeling or confidence from a gc who just does whatever the owner says without a second thought.
Guest User | 8 years and 11 months ago
Do your research and figure out if the altogether firm has a good record or not. If they do then you cant go wrong.
JorgeF | 8 years and 11 months ago
no that always come down to the individual and quality
crhorsken | 8 years and 11 months ago
Thanks Jorge
Is either one more price friendly?
JorgeF | 8 years and 11 months ago
There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
Advantage to design build firms:
1 stop shop makes your life easier
no conflicts of blame allocation contractor says architect made a mistake, architect says contractor made the mistake
Advantage to separate architect and GC:
checks and balances you can go to each one individually for advice suggestions and opinions.
You can fire one and keep the other if needed
I also feel the more things a company does the less likely they are good at all of them
By the way I am an architect. Personally I am not a fan of design build firms. . I am saying this because of personal experience. Some of the true design build firms I know are just not very good (i am only talking about the ones I know not all design build). Also make sure they have all the proper licenses. I know more firms in NYC claiming to do design build who are not actually licensed architects than those who really are.
If you want to do design build I would much more recommend Architect led design build or contractor led design build as opposed to a design build fi rm.
in these instances you either hire an architect who hires the contractor as a separate company or you hire the contractor who hires the architect as a separate company.
Or you just do a standard project with an architect and a GC as 2 separate companies.
Design build firms are most common in manufacturing and somewhat common in commercial not so much in residential.
Contractor led or architect led is more common in new construction not so much smaller projects or renovations. You never mentioned the type or size of your project.