Cost for Renovation?
I know there are a number of variables, but can anyone advise as to a legitimate cost for renovation of an entire brownstone, assuming electric and plumbing will need to be included. Can it be done with decent finishes for 400K?
jazzwalk
in General Discussion 10 years ago
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22 replies
chemosphere | 10 years ago
Before you sign the contract, hopefully before you bid, bring someone to the house who has a lot of experience with Brooklyn house renovations. Even if a lot of stuff is hidden there are telltale signs of major problems. Bouncy floors, ceilings with a lot of plaster repairs, bathrooms with many layers of linoleum, cracked ceramic tiles, weird roofing jobs, crooked porches, doors that no longer close properly etc. Almost always on a 100+ year old house the plumbing or the roof has leaked at some point. Did the owners have enough money to take necessary steps to fix, or did they just cover up?
The biggest thing is a sense of how diligent the previous owners were over the past century. This is hard to gauge. It has nothing to do with the amount of original details left in a house.
You should also know if you can afford to do a renovation with permits or if you need a house that has a layout you can keep, plumbing that can be upgraded but stay in place, and therefore don’t need permits on other than electrical.
There are certain things that people think they need which the y really don’t need. “Good finishes” is a way to separate people from their money. Good design has nothing to do with high end anything, and is really about creativity.
CarmenR | 10 years ago
> @randolph
> at some point did they consider just tearing the whole thing down and building a new house?
Don’t think so. I believe it was one of those things that revealed itself over time as demo progressed. Plus a NB permit is a huge PITA. We don’t know the owners personally, but know a few neighbors who have met them and actually know the original GC on the job. Scary stuff compounded by the fact that it’s detached on three sides, which made the structural work even more important.
randolph | 10 years ago
> @CarmenR
> Look at 165 Gates
at some point did they consider just tearing the whole thing down and building a new house?
slopefarm | 10 years ago
Reading the comments, I have to say, everyone is right. Your mileage will vary. You really won’t know what you are looking at in terms of cost until you scope out the work. I have to say, though that carmenr’s comment sounds right to me — “bad shape” in a brownstone of your squatre footage will probably end up in a reno costing more than $400k. Stress vs fun depends on how tight you are on time and/or money. A renovation can be fast, inexpensive and high quality, but never more than two of the three. Don’t make plans if you have no room to give — something always goes a bit wrong. on time and/or money.
workisfun | 10 years ago
We had been trying for a while, and finally got lucky. Definitely more time, money, and anxiety than we had expected, or than anyone who had been through it before had told us. But if you’re unconditionally committed and have your heart in it, it’s totally worth it. Oh wait…that’s my kid.
CarmenR | 10 years ago
I’m a dissenter here- I’ve actually found this process to be fun, however my husband has been less excited about it. We’re both caving under the crippling debt, but the thought of having a home we can live in forever is worth it for us. We had a hell of a time with neighbors/landlords/condo boards previously so basically any amount of BS we have to go through to not deal with people living above and below us again is something we’re willing to bear.
I do, however, think 400k for 4 floors is unrealistic if the place is in poor shape or you don’t know how bad it actually is. Look at 165 Gates, which we happens to know folks involved in. It’s a large 4-story Brownstone that is undergoing a gut reno and has been since 2013. They’re on their third contractor after the first one (at least) walked off the job because the condition of the building was too poor once they began opening the walls. If you look at the listing photos, the place looks like it’s in OK shape… but once all the drywall and plaster came down, they realized the entire building was about to collapse. They’ve rebuilt every wall and the foundation. I can’t even imagine the amount of money they’ve spent at this point- it’s got to be close to a million just on all that structural work. It’s very, very difficult to tell the condition of a building until you get all the walls down.
As a personal anecdote, we discovered a hole in our party wall during demo of our garden floor. It caused us roughly 2 weeks of delays and cost us around $10-$11k to fix after we paid our structural engineer to draw up plans, the expeditor to file them with the DOB (can’t be a PAA) and then our GC to actually fix the issue. For a 2.5 foot hole which had probably been there for at least a decade with no issues. You can’t ignore stuff like that when you find it.
Lurker | 10 years ago
We renovated for far less than 400k, though our budget would have to include all the hours I lost not working, which bumps the costs up consideradly. As others say above, if you don’t have a top notch GC or project manager or architect monitoring everything, you essentially need a person who can commit to near full-time work keeping tabs on construction—methods, materials, inspections, getting things delivered, etc.
BTW, this all sounds like bitching but I guess I mean it only as a reasoned caution to folks who aren’t DIYers/have a loose budget or comparatively well off enough to do this stuff without batting an eye at budgets. I thought I was smarter than the system and was doing everything right. It’s way more involved and taxing than I ever imagined.
Solomonsmines33 | 10 years ago
Well, my experience was more like mario’s: a $250k budget and about 8 months. 2600 sq ft plus a basement. 2 new kitchens (in basically the same plus as the old ones but all new) and 4 new baths, 2 of them in the same place as the old ones and 2 completely new but next to the existing plumbing stacks. All new electric, new plumbing (except the heating system and the main components of the main stack). We had to replace some joists on two floors, and replace the roof. We didn’t replace the windows but I would love to next year. We were able to salvage the parquet on one floor, and kept some of the plaster ceilings; others were in too bad shape to keep. It was pretty hands on, so it was important that one of us was working on a flexible schedule so there was someone that could meet contractors and check in. We bought all our own finishes; but that’s included in the $250k. I would have loved to have $400k to spend.
mario71 | 10 years ago
I’m finishing a pretty big renovation that cost 250K all included, and I’m torn between subscribing to the all pain or the all gain camp. The amount of learning has been amazing, the stress has been tough at times, my marriage has survived, etc. In strictly monetary terms, it is doable. For you to get an idea, we have completely renovated 2 floors of a 50×20 rowhouse. So 2000 sqft. Two new baths, one of them not directly in line with the existing stack, one new kitchen, etc. One of the floors was a basement that required digging inside, and also outside to waterproof, etc. New electric, new plumbing. A lot of sweat equity on my part, purchasing all the finishes by myself, and generally supervising the work because the GC would send his people (good guys who barely look at plans, though) but would rarely come himself. Expediter, architect, filing, etc., included. It’s going to clock in at almost 8 months of work.
randolph | 10 years ago
> @Lurker
> easy to become house obsessed
so true. i am worse than that guy who only talks about work or the yankees or his kids….i bitch and moan about my stupid renovation. ugh.
Lurker | 10 years ago
Totally agree with randolph. if you have 400k no sweat to renovate, plus another 100 for contingency, and no money worries, and can hire top people including designers to handle everything, you just might enjoy the process. If not, and you get stressed writing weekly multi-thousand dollar checks, and don’t have dozens and dozens of hours to spend researching windows, and tiles, and doors, and moldings, and faucets, and sinks, and tubs, and shower heads, and tubs, and shower doors, and wood stain and paint and door knobs and ceiling fixtures and mirrors and sconces, you will not believe what you’ve done to yourself, and how all-consuming this stuff is. You will stay up late researchign stuff, be woken from sleep thinking about it, and it’s easy to become house obsessed, especially if things don’t go to plan, which in a gut is a good possibility.
If this doesn’t bug you, then go for it.
randolph | 10 years ago
> @ls1
> It’s definitely going to be a process and a good amount of work, but it can also be exciting and fun.
i disagree whole heartedly. unless you are filthy rich and not concerned about the money being spent and the very real possibility of going over budget OR someone who already works in real estate/construction (architect, broker, contractor, designer, etc) that has a very firm grasp on the process, of which I am neither, you will most likely regret the day you ever got involved in renovating an old POS house in NYC and will wish you had just continued to rent or bit the bullet and moved to the burbs where owning a house and/or renovating one isn’t liable to break you.
randolph | 10 years ago
as others are saying, there are a few big things such as structural work that could greatly increase your budget, and then all sorts of things that you may want but can you afford them with a 400k budget??? for example, do you want central a/c? 35-50k. Need new windows? there goes another 15k or more. Want a deck off the parlor floor? that just cost you another 10-20k. do you plan on redoing the brownstone facade? if so you just spent another 50k+…..the list goes on and on and on, so you really need to look at what work you HAVE to do and then make sure you don’t get in over your head with things you cannot afford.
Solomonsmines33 | 10 years ago
$400k should definitely be doable including design fees unless you are making big structural changes, or unless the house has serious issues. You might have to be a bit more hands on sometimes, but there are plenty of good GCs and tradespeople that can do good quality work on this budget; there are also high end people that will cost way more, so make sure to get a range of bids and opinions. It’s definitely going to be a process and a good amount of work, but it can also be exciting and fun. I was totally scared and anxious until we did the demo on my house and I really saw the possibilities and from then on it was a tiring but good experience.
arben | 10 years ago
400k is doable, including design fees.
neweco | 10 years ago
Rule of thumb that I advise my clients is around $100k for per floor. Includes, new Electric, new plumbing, new floor joist, not sistered, new subfloor, drywall, paint, tile, etc . lots of variables obviously.
CarmenR | 10 years ago
If it’s in poor shape, you could easily spend $100k on structural work and work that is necessary to the safety or use of the house (and I’m not talking about sistering joists.) Foundation work, masonry, roofing, (don’t forget about asbestos abatement with that roof! 15k+) New sewer line (10k+) new water main (7k+) fixing and relining the chimney (7k+) $400k won’t cut it, even without soft costs.
newtomehouse | 10 years ago
3000 sq/ft and 400k? No way. You’ll need double that.
jazzwalk | 10 years ago
Thank you.