Cost Effective Renovations without sacrificing Original Details
We want to update electrical and plumbing in a 100 year old house (and add A/C). We had thought since doorways and windows had been stripped of paint that we would be clear of major lead hazards. However both of our children have tested for elevated lead levels in only 7 months of living in the house. We drink filtered water. The soil was tested and is awful, but we’ve limited the kids exposure in the back yard. Since kids were tested we did at home tests that showed lead dust on stripped windows to be laden with lead. Certain floorboards in the house, when stepped on, appear to smoke when a fine dust seeps up.
So we are now looking at replacing plaster walls and floors. For safety sake I could part with those, especially since floors pretty bouncy and thin. But door frames and floor boards are impossible to match. Our contractor & architect are saying that to selvedge floor boards and doorways is next to impossible if we replace plaster walls and do gut reno. Does anyone have comparable experience? Electric will be easier to update if all walls come down rather than piecemeal working around plaster. But I don’t want to lose all the beautiful woodwork. Should we hire a lead abatement professional to get their feedback on all the most harmful areas? Pick and choose our details? Heartrending, but the cost of keeping all details is beyond what we can budget.
eugene-delicado
in General Discussion 8 years and 2 months ago
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jodie1028 | 8 years and 2 months ago
Yes brooklyn – I’m so sorry to hear that! Wow, what a different experience. I should clarify that we only used Tara for cleaning, not stripping. Had a very positive experience but so sorry to hear that you had the opposite.
yesbrooklyn | 8 years and 2 months ago
Caution: While we did similar to Jodie 1089, we had some problems I’d like to share along the way. We hired Luke (whose number I shared already above) and we hired Tara Enterprises. Tara stripped our doors and handled some problem areas but in the process got lead ALL OVER the house even to places it hadn’t been. We had problems getting them to clean up (they never did) and had to throw out tons of things that had gotten contaminated with no hope of getting fully clean. Additionally this company left their sticky substance and tools all over the floor which necessitated us getting the floors refinished. NOT CHEAP. Needless to say he wasn’t paid in full for the job so we ended up in small claims, as he sued us.
Long story short, after a counterclaim he’s due to actually pay us money. This was over a year ago. He still hasn’t paid, though this was a court order. Please I caution you against working with him. This was months of stress, anguish, and pain, and truly truly awful. There are other companies. Use them.
jodie1028 | 8 years and 2 months ago
Reading your story is like reading our own. Our youngest tested nearly 20 on the lead test (should be 5 or less) so we had a serious lead problem. Obviously safety comes first, but we were also trying to save original details from our c.1854 in tact wood frame. I’m happy to say that we got the lead levels down and solved the problem, making it safe for our kids, and we were also able to save the details. All without breaking the bank. Here’s how we did it:
– We hired Luke to test our home throughly. We had that dust too, and that was the main source of our problem. Testing will tell you where the real problem lies, then you can deal with it. Home tests aren’t accurate enough. We had bad levels in the dirt, terrible levels on the floor (30,000 in the worst area, should have been 40). Not terrible on the windows even though home tests showed it was there. Nothing in the plaster or lathe.
– Next we hired Tara Enterprises corp to do a complete clean up. Highly recommend them.
– Then Luke came back, retested, and levels were all nearly 0.
– We removed the top 3 in ches or so of soil in the backyard and replaced then put sod on top.
– We renovated the bathroom and replaced the tub, because there was some question as to the lead levels coming from the 50 year old tub.
At this point lead levels came down rapidly in the children. Important note – do not let the people from the city into your home. Tell them you are handling it privately.
Once we felt the home was safe, and the kids were healthy, at that point we could deal with the renovation choices in the home. We chose to save the original moldings and had them hand stripped, and we repaired and replaced the plaster walls (Jason from Urban Plaster did an amazing job).
Nearly everyone will tell you it’s not worth it. Rip it out and replace it. Maybe we are crazy, it’s a lot harder. But every time I see those perfectly imperfect moldings with one coat of paint I smile. The moldings we couldn’t save were replicated by Santos (also recommended) or by Chris Lombardi, as part of bathroom renovations, and he is spectacular.
Good luck!
lsp | 8 years and 2 months ago
Given the importance of a healthy home I urge you to contact a trustworthy lead abatement specialist. They should know how to clean up the leaded mess left behind by others and how to encapsulate any remaining walls, ceilings or woodwork where lead is still present.
Regarding the electrical upgrade, is it your electrical contractor who is advising you to gut? I had a 3,400 square foot 1895 home rewired without demolishing a single wall or ceiling and a 6,300 square foot 1886 home losing only the hallway ceilings on two out of four floors. Part of the beauty of old houses is the plaster and trim work. An electrician with a healthy respect for and knowledge of old houses should be able to rewire with minimal destruction. An electrician who lacks that background tends to create bigger headaches than just the dust of demolition.
BKALLDAY | 8 years and 2 months ago
Hi. Sorry to hear about the elevated lead found in your kid’s systems. I say bluntly to you that it is just not worth it. You should certainly hire a lead abatement company and you and your partner decide on the few things to keep (Door frames, mantles, floorboards.). Forget the plaster and lathe. If you are going to put in HVAC they are going to get pretty torn up anyway. Plus you can actually make a more efficient home using todays sheetrock and certain insulation products. As for your yard. You can get someone to truck all that dirt out and then power-wash the surrounding areas. I know the safety of your children will take precedence over saving some aspects of an old home but depending on what the levels are/were you may be setting your kids up to fight a hard battle in school and health wise if you try any work-arounds. Good luck to you and your family.
eugene-delicado | 8 years and 2 months ago
Thank you everyone for the input. The prior owners did a lot of paint removal — from all windows and doors. I suspect they didn’t do any kind of thorough clean up and much of it is in the floors. Some floorboards when stepped on produce a fine dust that almost looks like smoke. Anybody have a lead abatement company they can recommend?
cate | 8 years and 2 months ago
FWIW we have also stripped lead paint, renovated, etc., and have small amounts of lead paint in the house (such as antique painted furniture) and our child has tested 100 percent lead free, so there is hope. Could someone have removed the lead improperly and then didn’t clean up correctly?
cate | 8 years and 2 months ago
I second Jbrook’s comments. Also, there is no need to rip out any walls. Just paint over them. Encapsulation is one of the recommended approaches. Re dust everywhere — did someone sand the lead paint, not clean the house after, and then you moved in? Lead paint should never be sanded, and any house should be carefully cleaned after a renovation, using multiple passes with wetting down surfaces. You can hire professionals to do “post renovation” cleaning. Re the dust on the windowsills, if the paint is gone, then clean the windowsill and seal it or paint it. Re the floor boards, that sounds quite unusual but perhaps a professional with a shop vac and hepa filter can get rid of it. You have my sympathy and good luck with everything.
jackdaniel
in General Discussion 8 years and 2 months ago
I recommend testing and consultation with abatement professionals with a good reputation before making any decisions. Also, I dont know if this is the case, but is there any possibility that your children are being exposed to lead elsewhere, for example a daycare or school setting?
brokelin | 8 years and 2 months ago
Definitely get more advice re: lead abatement. I can see why you might want to replace your floors, but you should know that ripping out painted plaster walls may create a lot more lead dust than leaving them in place would. And the feeling of plaster walls really is irreplaceable (unlike replacing wood flooring, which you can replace with wood and have them look good and feel even sturdier; drywall never looks good, nor does it insulate sound like plaster.) Plaster in the walls isn’t going anywhere, and If painted and not chipping, the lead paint underneath the recent coats poses no threat whatsoever. Many contractors want to take down the plaster walls and drywall because it makes their job easier, but know that doing may create a lot of hazardous lead dust to clean up which wouldn’t be dust or dangerous if just left alone. So, do think about keeping your walls intact and making holes where necessary, even if that costs a bit more – it might well be your safest option, lead-wise.
It seems to me you should focus on (1) cleaning up the lead dust left behind by prev ious owner’s stripping, (2) fixing lead hazards that currently exist, and (3) having any future work done with lead safe work procedures in place.
As to (1), find out If the wood moldings must be replaced, or if they just weren’t cleaned and finished properly after stripping, and if it is possible to remove any surface lead and seal any that may exist in the wood from coming out. Also as to (1), I can see why you want to pull up your floorboards to deal with the lead dust underneath, and if they are thin, I could see replacing them with nice hardwood if you are doing so (in spite of the fact that I love 100-year old floorboards, however thin – lead safety is more important!).
As to (2), while painted plaster walls that have lead paint underneath modern lead-free paint pose no threat, this is not the case with painted items that experience friction – such as the sashes of windows that open and close rubbing against each other, and doors that open and close in their casings. These are the places where the lead must be completely removed from existing wood (so it doesn’t wear away into dust with the friction of use) or the wood replaced. You may be creating lead dust now if you have painted window sashes, doors and door casings, or stripped ones that are still making leaded dust. These are the places where just paining over the current wood, if it tests positive for lead, won’t do enough, as the new paint is constantly exposed to friction with door and window use. The wood moldings around the windows and doors that does not experience friction should, I think, be fine when painted with lead safe paint if it is not experiencing friction (much like plaster walls are fine when painted over) though I’m not a lead professional, so check with one, as wood may be different than plaster – and if you want to keep the moldings stripped and not paint them, I don’t know about what wood cleaning and sealing method would also make them safe, though I suspect that may be some cleaning and sealing methods that would render those molding parts that don’t experience friction lead-safe with wood finishing.
As to (3), you need contractors who will do everything recommended to contain and clean up the lead dust as they work to rewire or replumb your walls. These are likely not the same contractors who only rip out all the walls rather than work on houses where the plaster walls are being preserved when renovating.
You might want to consider adding a bathroom water filter or two so your children also shower and bathe and brush their teeth in water without lead, especially I you have a lead water main that has not been replaced. Good luck!
yesbrooklyn | 8 years and 2 months ago
You’ve got to take care of the lead and to do that really need to know what you’re working with. I recommend calling Luke who will do some testing for you. He’s a great guy to boot and super knowledgable in all things Brooklyn renovation. Here’s his number: 646-258-2362
Arkady | 8 years and 2 months ago
I’d get input from a lead abatement pro first. There may be things you can do that are palatable & not expensive. For instance, I’ve seen suggestions that painting over lead-based works as long as your kids are not still the age of eating the woodwork. Then make your decisions based on what the expert says.
slopefarm | 8 years and 2 months ago
My wife has the discerning eye. I just see it after she points it out.
I would add that our eyes were not discerning enough to handle all the design choices we had to make quickly during our reno and, in retrospect, we should have hired more help in that regard. Easy to say in retrospect.
greenworks | 8 years and 2 months ago
Thanks slopefarm — I know you have a discerning eye so I wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing anything.
Putnamdenizen | 8 years and 2 months ago
First, my sympathies on the high lead levels. It happened with my son as well. I assume you have been talking to their doctor about what to do. I would recommend that you have a professional testing and get a plan from a professional. You may end up making it worse if you try to figure it out on your own.
slopefarm | 8 years and 2 months ago
The standard, Dykes lumber stuff is cut with angles and curves that you just don;t see om the original trim. But if you have exact replica, I would expect you wouldn’t see the difference.
greenworks | 8 years and 2 months ago
Hey slopefarm — we had exact replicas of our casing machine made. I put them next to the hand cut originals and I can’t see a difference at all. I’m curious as to how one can tell the difference (outside of wood type).
slopefarm | 8 years and 2 months ago
Apart from the renovations, you might want to have about a foot of soil removed in your backyard and then replaced with new soil. Lead just kind of sits there. I think you would greatly reduce the lead levels in the soil that your kids are exposed to by doing this.
It costs more to preserve and restore than to gut. The preservation itself costs more and it adds to the cost of updating mechanicals if you have to limit the extent to which the walls are open. To save, you may have to be selective about what you preserve. that said, I still don;t quite like the look of machine-cut moldings and the like in our house where we did not preserve.
CarmenR | 8 years and 2 months ago
We removed the original floors from our house and had them refinished and reinstalled when we did our gut reno. It costs a fortune- probably 4x the amount of getting new wood (but about half the price of buying the same salvaged wood if we wanted the same look.) So it’s certainly possible but it’s expensive. One thing that’s nice about it is that we now have subfloor under it so it feels much sturdier, is more well-insulated, etc.