CofO or No CofO-- Whats More "Valuable"

So, just as a thought experiment, lets say someone was thinking about selling a three story Brooklyn Limestone after many years of use.

Along the way, the owners made many, er, ah, improvements, as you do, but let’s just say we were a little lapse with notifying the city.

Theres no CofO, no I-Card, no nada.

The property is in wonderful shape–no violations, easy to get insurance, mortgageable– essentially move in condition where mechanicals all work 100% etc.

Here’s the question:

Keeping in mind that everyone makes minor alterations when moving into a new property:

Is it worth the aprox $10K for the OWNER to go back and register all the improvements with the city BEFORE listing?

Or, should the owner simply sell the property as is– and let the buyer continue the “path of least resistance” for the new occupancy?

jrs84o

in General Discussion 1 year and 11 months ago

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cate | 1 year and 11 months ago

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Let sleeping dogs lie. Changing the C of O will trigger an enormous tax increase at the very least. It may also trigger DOB requirements for extremely expensive alterations such as sprinklers.

Guest User | 1 year and 11 months ago

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We went the legal route for our gut renovation and dealing with the DOB has been slow and painful. Are we in the minority? Do most people just do the work and worry about the DOB later

justinromeu26 | 1 year and 11 months ago

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they do not push people to tidy it up. most of the older houses that are sold do not have c of o’s. most sellers agents just want the sale to move through without complications and asking a potential seller to tidy something like that can delay a listing from coming on the market by years as people clean it up.

i have been through changing C of O’s in commercial buildings and as the operational management person on a team, it was my job to see to it that all of the illegal work had been straightened out. we had to undo things the DOB did not know about and file and redo things they knew about using architects and licensed trades; it took a long time and even though a smaller house might have less of it, one item can still take a long time.

Most listing agents will advise you what you can do to walk the line between NOT cleaning it all up and maximizing the sale price.

Most people do not legalize all of their wrongs. there are stories about situations where things have gone wrong but most of the stories are from buyers who got caught.

I have a neighbor h ere who bought a house with an illegal apt and porch. he suspected the porch was illegal and had a clause written into the sale contract. but he did not know that the apt in the basement was illegal. he got caught for both and had to file the removal of the basement apt and take it out. the porch he was able to sue the seller on. so be aware that some buyers may ask you to back up claims (in the contract) if they suspect somethin g is illegal.

People tell me all the time that sellers’ agents tell them “remove this stove” and hide the shower when pictures are taken. One guy told me they made him string a white sheet up along the counter of the illegal apt.

Most old houses have illegal work and some of this is so far back that it predates records and i am sure there is some amount of “grandfathering” with say kitchens that were added right after a house was built in 1880 (buyers and sellers have a lot of questions about this very old work). Some houses in this city have been used as two family houses since the beginning and they are not listed on the record as a two family. there is a big, confusing gray area here. Real estate agents can advise how to deal with these as well as modern illegal apts. if it were me, I would not open a can of worms and begin trying to legalize this stuff. you let them in and you do not know where it will stop (if a house has an illegal apt, it will have all sorts of other illegal work).

In so far as minor illegal work. old electrical work (circuits added for windows a/c’s) or gas lines for dryers (as performed by licensed trades but not filed). most houses have some of this and i just do not think people filed this stuff in the 1950’s – 70’s and probably still don’t. A lot of boilers were changed in a lot of houses in say the 1970’s or 80’s and they were not filed (and are still working). Most people do not seem to worry about these sorts of things as they sell or buy.

somebody said it above, let sleeping dob agents sleep. unless you have to let them into your house, keep them out of your house and life.

by the way, there are several people who have found me here and have paid me in the vicinity of a thousand dollars (a little more or a little less; i can walk a four story house with the owner following me asking questions for what a larger inspection service charges for a buyer’s inspection) to walk their houses with them and answer their questions and prepare a report. i have spent years managing in house and contract maintenance in buildings and working as a restoration contractor and have the education to back that up. if you want to bring me in, i will look at your house and tell you the good, the bad and the ugly. EVERYONE who has hired me for this service has been a little surprised at what we have found and has been quite happy with what they learned. I find things all the time that people performing jobs (experts) miss and find serious things (a gas leak; i come from a point of safety). i can coach people on how to do DIY and what trade or profession to call for other things. see my reviews in the directory on this board. look at my experience on my website. No BS here. I work for the person paying me (the homeowner) and no one else.

Steve
brownstone home inspection llc
brownstonehomeinspection.com

jrs84o | 1 year and 11 months ago

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I’m curious… Do selling agents understand the “benefits” of a no CofO property… Or, do they pressure sellers into “tidying-up” the paperwork over at the DOB BEFORE they get involved in marketing the property?

Anyone with experience here?

Thnx.

jrs84o | 1 year and 11 months ago

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Lets just sy, in this HYPOTHETICAL, Id be leaning towards NOT filing for the improvements if the buyer understands the benefits….. But its a frame of reference for those who have past dealings with the DOB.

In Brooklyn the standard rule is “Do your improvements without filing until someone complains…. Thats why its always better to be friendly with your neighbors LOL..!!..!!

jrs84o | 1 year and 11 months ago

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$10K came from a local Architect who would do all the drawings and usher them through the DOB.. Ive looked into this at various times over the past 10 years and $10K seems to be “THE” number barring any major deviations from a standard 2 unit (apartment over duplex or duplex over apartment.)

This $10K buys you a “legal” — well lets say DOCUMENTED– CofO in any configuration you may request.

In my case Ive used a 3 story plus LEGAL basement (its indicated as such on the tax plan) as a single residence, and would pass along the “opportunity” for the purchaser to file a new CofO and turn the LEGAL basement into a separate unit if they wanted.

My main question is:

Are non-sophisticated buyers even aware of the “benefits” of NOT having a CofO on file?

Comments…?

Putnamdenizen | 1 year and 11 months ago

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    ["user_email"]=>
    string(17) "JLStevens@mac.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(35) "http:///forums/users/putnamdenizen/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:12:34"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(13) "Putnamdenizen"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(1667)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

I’d be curious where you got that figure to “cure” your previous, er, over-enthusiasms. My inclination as “ask forgiveness only if necessary, and rarely permission” kind of guy, is to let sleeping code enforcement officers lie where they are – far from your home. My current plan is to pass my home to my son as part of my estate and let him inherit both the stepped-value and any unpermitted improvements.

jrs84o | 1 year and 11 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4901 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4898 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189678"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(6) "jrs84o"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BfINac7YYbZgfp5Asv2WQvvvJa1S6O/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(6) "jrs84o"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(16) "jrs84o@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2022-04-21 02:22:26"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(19) "Rant Zane Rant Zane"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(189678)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

So, Im looking for comments from the perspectives of both “Buyer/New Owner” and “Seller/Original Owner”… Just ask’in, thnx.