changing a 'kitchen' to a bathroom in a two family
We own a two story, two family wood frame house built around 1910. The house is classified as a two family, but I don’t believe it has a C of O. We want to change the top floor ‘kitchen’ to a bathroom. I say ‘kitchen’ because there is no more kitchen, though the gas line and plumbing is still there.
To do this, do we have to try to change our house from a legal two family to a one family? Or can we just put in the bathroom? in the kitchen area?
I’d love to hear from people who have done this. Thanks!
kms_bkyn
in General Discussion 8 years ago
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shahnandersen
in General Discussion 8 years ago
@Michael Scaduto If I read the DOB memo correctly, it only applies to multiple dwellings (3+ units) with a CO. The current situation has no CO and is listed as a two family, so the memo unless I am missing something, the memo does not apply.
slopefarm | 8 years ago
That sounds about right. And things may have been tighter right after 2008 as well. I am just a bit cautious about assuming the conditions at the time when the OP decides to sell, presumably at least a few years from now. Who knows what might be spooking DOB, lenders, attorneys etc at that time.
EJR | 8 years ago
Slope – fair enough. I suppose I could see an overbearing (and inexperienced) buyer’s attorney making an issue of this. In a seller’s market, however, that would probably just result in that buyer loosing the deal to another candidate. As for the lenders, I’ve worked with 5-6 different banks on mortgages now, and none of them have even requested a CofO.
slopefarm | 8 years ago
EJR — I have heard a bunch of stories over the years of people going out and buying a cheapo used oven and fridge and setting up a bare bones kitchen to get through inspection, appraisal, etc. for sale. Whether that is actually required, or the result of excess fear imparted by brokers or folk wisdom, I do not know. Some lenders may require it simply because they do not know the vagaries of NYC and get cold feet over stupid stuff. We had a whole lot of nonsensical conditions imposed on closing that we had to get aggressive about and try to talk the bank down from. So I think the warning is fair that the risk exists, whether there is a legit reason for the risk to exist or not.
regobrilnzdwtpd | 8 years ago
You can combine the two “apartments” without needing to obtain a new CofO – the DOB has a rule that says adjacent (horizontally or vertically) apartments can be merged under an Alt-2 filing:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/ppn/tppn0397.shtml
This would be relatively quick and easy to do completely legally – feel free to contact me at michael@michaelscaduto.com
regobrilnzdwtpd | 8 years ago
You can combine the two “apartments” without needing to obtain a new CofO – the DOB has a rule that says adjacent (horizontally or vertically) apartments can be merged under an Alt-2 filing:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/ppn/tppn0397.shtml
This would be relatively quick and easy to do completely legally – feel free to contact me at michael@michaelscaduto.com
regobrilnzdwtpd | 8 years ago
You can combine the two “apartments” without needing to obtain a new CofO – the DOB has a rule that says adjacent (horizontally or vertically) apartments can be merged under an Alt-2 filing:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/ppn/tppn0397.shtml
This would be relatively quick and easy to do completely legally – feel free to contact me at michael@michaelscaduto.com
EJR | 8 years ago
> @slopefarm
> When it is time to sell, you may need to put a rudimentary kitchen back or inspection, etc. You can discuss with your contractors how to put in the bathroom so that this won;t be much of a hassle down the road.
I take issue with this statement. I have seen a version of this comment on a number of different posts; the other versions being “you won’t get a mortgage if the usage of the house doesn’t match the CofO”, but I have yet to hear an actual story where this was an issue, either for a prospective buyer or lender. Other than a flipped house, I would venture that nearly every since house in Brooklyn has some code, permitting or usage issue. Can someone give me an example where there was an issue with this from a sale perspective?
slopefarm | 8 years ago
When it is time to sell, you may need to put a rudimentary kitchen back or inspection, etc. You can discuss with your contractors how to put in the bathroom so that this won;t be much of a hassle down the road. .
dorkofwindsor | 8 years ago
What i have been told by an expediter is that it is an alt 1 to go from 2 to 1 family, Looking at architect at least $10k and the massive nightmare that is currently the DOB. Seems to me that everyone just goes ahead and does it on the down low as “2 family configured as one”
bobjohn | 8 years ago
I could be wrong but the old kitchen had the 2″ waste pipe. The new bathroom might need 4″ pipe and it means changing quite a lot of plumbing.
EJR | 8 years ago
It’s no so much that everything is done “legally”, which it’s not since you wouldn’t file any permits. It’s more that everything is done “to code”, in that you hire experienced professional contractors and subs and they perform all work to code and to high standards. In my opinion for a job like this, where there are no structural issues involved, I think this is the way to go. You will not be creating any hazardous situations and will avoid the time and expense of the awful DOB permitting process. If the DOB wants fewer work done without permits it needs to streamline the permitting process.
Just make sure you don’t make the work too obvious and end up with an anonymous complaint that leads to a stop work order. Don’t leave any debris outside or otherwise make it visible from the outside that work is being done. If any inspector comes knocking don’t let them in. They can’t issue a stop work order unless they see permitted work and I believe they only try twice before closing out a complaint.
gemby | 8 years ago
Is that possible? To do everything legally except for one one thing? It seems like it would be hard to pull of if you have DOB coming in to inspect the rest of the project, unless you did the bathroom conversion as a separate project after the rest of your renovation.
However, I don’t have a great handle on the permits & inspection process yet so I could be missing something.
kms_bkyn | 8 years ago
thanks so much. That is what we are leaning towards — doing everything legally other than getting the bathroom permit.
resident2 | 8 years ago
A LNO has nothing to do with this situation.
What you are asking is done quite frequently (under the radar)
Two families used as one is not a big issue. Yes, technically you are supposed to get a permit and that would throw you into needing to changing its use. Which is a complete waste of time and money considering the flexibilty of having a legal two family. Once you have given up the extra use, it will always be a much bigger hurdle to get it back.
Use licensed plumbers & electricians, do it to code (without the permit!).
shahnandersen
in General Discussion 8 years ago
Does DOB issue Letters of No Objection for this situation? They could issue a LNO for a building without a CO that was listed as a one-family for use as a two-family. But would they issue one for the opposite case?
daveinbedstuy | 8 years ago
You don’t want to have to go through the trouble (and likely lower resale value compared to a 2 family) of changing the C of O so, if it were me, I’d just put the bathroom in “under the radar.” You’ll need a new drain pipe for the toilet and make sure all the work is done to code. Aside from minor plumbing, you’re looking at some drywalling and tiling; things in and of themselves wouldn’t have required permits anyway. Others may disagree.