Buying a flipped / gut renovated townhouse?

Hey everyone. I’ve been shopping for a townhouse for the past few months and have been looking at a lot of gut renovations in Bed Stuy that appear to be developer flips. There are SO many and they all seem sorta interchangeable. I’ve also looked at a few non-renovated but in good shape homes that are about $500k cheaper.

In an ideal world I’d buy and renovate myself, but I’m balking at the money and time commitment. As a first time buyer with a busy job, I’m not sure I’m ready to embark on a full gut, as much as I’d love to. Already renovated properties are attractive in that regard.

It seems like a lot of people are wary of flips, and this makes a lot of sense. Permitting can be unclear, inspections can’t catch a lot of things, developers can be shady, property taxes can shoot up unexpectedly when an assessment hits.

I’d especially love to hear from people who have bought or almost-bought one of these flips. How has it worked out? Have you been hit with surprising repairs or property taxes? What unexpected things have you encountered? Would you recommend it? Woul d you absolutely steer clear?

Should I buy a cheaper non-renovated home (albeit with an update boiler, facade, and roof) and just chill in it for a while, budgeting in for repairs and maybe an eventual major reno, when I’m ready?

Any thoughts are very appreciated! This forum has been so helpful to me and I thank everyone for helping guide my decision.

khushksaali

in General Discussion 2 years and 5 months ago

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cate | 2 years and 5 months ago

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That’s good to hear, Bob Marvin.

RobertGMarvin

in General Discussion 2 years and 5 months ago

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You beat me to it Cate. I also thought Dixon. They renovated a house on Rutland Road in my neighborhood and, according to the people next door, did a pretty good job.

cate | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Thank you for all the info on what you’ve seen, that’s really interesting. Your decision to make an offer on a house that’s been rented out and lived in for a while sounds like a smart one. (Sounds like Dixon. I don’t have any special insider knowledge, but the quality of their work appeared above average.) Good luck!

khushksaali | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Hi again– thanks so much for your advice, everyone. This may not be the most brownstoner-approved update, but I ended up making an offer on a renovated townhouse. No word yet on acceptance. The historic rowhouses are undeniably more beautiful, and it’s cool seeing how everyone renovates while still maintaining original details, but the idea of a full reno, esp since costs have shot up, seemed too daunting for me right now.

Some thoughts on gut renos: I saw soooo many of these on my housing search. Most of them had been bought in the last year or two and flipped. I found the kitchens and bathrooms in most of them to range from a little gaudy but still cute, to butt ugly nouveau Cheesecake Factory crap. So much gold, white and black marble, cheap-seeming veneer cabinets. And you see the same exact finishes again and again, to the point where I coudl sort of identify which developer did which house just by the kitchen islands or the bathroom pendant lights. The glitzy-modern aesthetic put me off a lot of them right off the bat, but I thought maybe I could overlook that. M ore concerningly, though, I definitely noticed clumsy finishes on some of them, like crooked doorknobs and misaligned pocket doors. If the stuff I could see was a little wonky, what about the stuff I can’t?

As for who’s making these things, it can be hard to suss out who the developer is beneath all the LLCs, but I tried to do due diligence on these guys. There were three developers in particular who seemed quite uh, prolific, with several flips on the market. Some of them seemed kinda shady, a little bit new to real estate, and the speed of their renos did give me pause. They’d bought the homes for a millionish and were selling for $2.2ish-$2.5, and I wondered, what is the profit margin on that? If you subtract the cost of a high end, reputable gut (sounds like 500 psqf in this market), plus selling costs, does that math work out? It seemed a little fuzzy, and I was worried they’d cut corners on the really important stuff.

So, I decided NOT to get one of these super recent flips. But then, I saw a few gut-reno homes that had been renovated several years ago and rented out since then. The developer who did these was a large-scale investor who seemed to be a little more thoughtful and by-the-book with his renos, and I was able to find more info on his process, the contractors he worked with, etc. Not to say any of these guys are saints–ultimately, they’re all kind of sharks. But the houses felt notably less gaudy, less sloppy and slapped together. What gave me more confidence was the fact that the houses had been lived in for quite a while and weren’t brand new. It felt less likely that something would go massively wrong, and it gave me an opportunity to see the houses with a bit of wear on them.

Hopefully my instinct/research about the house I offered on will bear out, fingers crossed. If I had more cash reserves, time, energy, and expertise, I’d love to take on a reno project that preserves more lovely details, but I’m also happy with the place I (hopefully) will buy. Am also super curious about how these other flips will fare, qualitywise–I’m not 100% against them, and they could very well be decent quality, but I got kinda leery after seeing so many.

cate | 2 years and 5 months ago

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OP, any luck? What did you decide to do?

colonialrevival | 2 years and 5 months ago

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[whispers] for those who live in historic districts, these costly fees can be run through the state’s historic home rehab tax credit program to the tune of a 20% tax credit of up to $50,000 per tax year.

italianate | 2 years and 5 months ago

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The cost to renovate is much higher than it was previously. Getting an accurate figure on a gut reno is difficult. A reputable GC charges $500 PSF, and it goes up from there. You could easily double that if you have high-end finishes and a lot of structural work. Don’t forget to factor in architect fees and all the other soft costs – it gets pricey quickly. It is a long, stressful process but worth it if you have the time and capital. I would only suggest it if you plan to live in the house for many years.

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    ["aioseo_manage_seo"]=>
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    ["aioseo_page_analysis"]=>
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    ["aioseo_page_general_settings"]=>
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    ["aioseo_page_advanced_settings"]=>
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    ["aioseo_page_schema_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["aioseo_page_social_settings"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["rank_math_edit_htaccess"]=>
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    bool(true)
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    ["rank_math_content_ai"]=>
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    ["srm_manage_redirects"]=>
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    ["SPF Manage Analytics"]=>
    bool(false)
    ["administrator"]=>
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    ["editor"]=>
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}

If you are going to embark on a renovation, find an architect in your area with lots of experience doing just whatever it is you plan to do.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189743"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BjSWB1c5WUJ0DBogl53oBDpnZifM8J."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
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    ["user_email"]=>
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    ["user_url"]=>
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    ["display_name"]=>
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It is always better to buy a house that has had nothing done to it as opposed to a house that has had the wrong stuff done to it.

And anyone with a college degree can probably project manage a renovation with a better outcome than people who intentionally or knowingly do things wrong. Yes, such a project will come with challenges, mistakes, and headaches but if you have someone to hold your hand, you can easily do better than these flippers.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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object(WP_User)#5122 (8) {
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    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "189743"
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    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BjSWB1c5WUJ0DBogl53oBDpnZifM8J."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "justinromeu26"
    ["user_email"]=>
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    ["user_url"]=>
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    string(19) "2022-05-10 20:48:00"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
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    ["user_status"]=>
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    ["display_name"]=>
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    [0]=>
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}

Right. Many developrs sit just above flippers. But at least developers are often working with new construction and that opens them to scrutiny from the authorities. Some of these flippers i can only imagine do as much work as they can without filing and no doubt they will sneak in electrical and heating work without filing and if they would make a door out of plywood, i would hate to see what is hidden in the walls. Scary stuff.

colonialrevival | 2 years and 5 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4929 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5120 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
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    ["user_login"]=>
    string(15) "colonialrevival"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(63) "$wp$2y$10$Hpn.MvIYV2j2Kft6cDVr4.jKbMsc0PGBNtt82m4HCHW65doZ2BIOW"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
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    ["user_email"]=>
    string(25) "bergdoll.joseph@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2024-03-27 02:33:20"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
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    ["user_status"]=>
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  }
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}

There are plenty of “developers” who are just “sparkling flippers”, if you catch my drift.

cate | 2 years and 5 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5121 (8) {
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    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "176696"
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    string(4) "cate"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(63) "$wp$2y$10$4JNbGAK5cKoEp6kzsYVSBO7oMZphxvnQPCDInpVARCm3B1Dj6U75i"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
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    ["user_email"]=>
    string(20) "cate@brownstoner.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:24:59"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(13) "Cate Corcoran"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
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    [1]=>
    string(6) "editor"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
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    ["switch_themes"]=>
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    bool(true)
    ["activate_plugins"]=>
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    ["edit_plugins"]=>
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Maybe you can find one recently renovated by its owner occupants. These do come up from time to time. I can think of a couple recently, one that sold for $1.8 and the other for $2.45 though it was listed for slightly less. This one I think is really beautiful. The cellar, of all things, is a work of art. Looks like all the systems are top notch. The renovation wasn’t quite finished, there were still a few things to do at the top of the house, but nothing serious. https://streeteasy.com/sale/1609709

cate | 2 years and 5 months ago

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If you buy a place that has been lived in by owner occupants and is in good shape but a bit shabby, a full on gut may not be needed. In any case, either way, I’d highly recommend buying a place with a dry cellar and without leaks above all. I’d also recommend buying a place that already has the occupancy and configuration you want or very close to it — for example, a two-family with an owner’s duplex or triplex over a garden rental (if that’s the configuration you want). This will save you money and time and keep your taxes low. If you find such a gem and you don’t want to embark on a year-long major whole-house renovation, you could still take care of some minimal, basic things to spruce up the place and improve your comfort. For example, before moving in, you can add mini-splits (leaving the existing heating system in place), close up the holes, paint the interior, and (if needed) refinish the floors. This would take about a month or so and, depending on the size of the place, cost somewhere in the ballpark of $70K or so. One thing also to keep in mind is that even in houses that need all mechanicals replaced, this can be done without gutting. Of course, if you are removing walls or blowing out the back, then you will necessarily be doing at least a partial gut.

anotherposter | 2 years and 5 months ago

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The benefit to living in a home for at least a couple of years before doing big changes is that you learn what changes would make that space best for you better than if you do it right away. We made a few “obvious” changes to our home with in the first two years (windows were in dire need of replacing when we bought, replaced a too small furnace, added a deck type stuff) and we talked about other plans that ended up scrapped because we were living in it and I was working from home and it was awful.

Many years later we did a bigger renovation (and moved out for it) and we definitely had different ideas on what was important and how to make the space best for us after many years of living in it than if we’d done it earlier. Some problems that ended up being super annoying to live with took time to notice as well, so wouldn’t have been properly addressed with an early in the space reno.

I’m wary of flips as I’ve seen a few done on our block and just what I can see of what’s going on often looks pretty low quality.

irfan | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Thanks all… I was asking the difference between a flipper and developer. Very helpful.

irfan | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Thanks all… I was asking the difference between a flipper and developer. Very helpful.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 5 months ago

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Flippers don’t care. They buy houses with the intent of NEVER occupying them. The purpose is to turn them over at a profit as soon as they can.

I also think flippers try to remain anonymous. The human side of it. I think they must through corporations that they set up for maybe even one project and they manage to hide their names (i think we know who developers are, good or bad). I say this because when i get to houses where something is so screwed up that it looks dangerous or like someone did something with the intent on committing outright fraud, i ask the people “who did this?” It happen not long ago and i asked and they said they had no idea who the person was behind their flip. So the flipper managed to hide themselves because they know full well what they are doing is wrong and they know that while what they are doing might border on fraud, it might be hard to prove (ny is a buyer beware state) in court but some of this is so wrong that it might not be unreasonable for someone to get so angry when they find out they have been cheated that they might visit them at their residence to have a talk. Or smear them on line.

Flippers are “fly-by-nights”. No intent on being around to suffer what they do wrong. No thought of doing anything correctly. Bare minimum and hide, hide, hide.

Usually it is nice young couples who fall for this and it is very troubling for someone like me to have to face them and tell them what is wrong and i know that when i see it on the entry doors, that that is the tip of the ice berg. I get worried for their safety with the heating and electric.

In truth, i might consider marketing my home inspection business at people buying flips. I would love to uncover them. Thank you all for the idea.

If you know anyone looking to buy what might be a flip, send them to me. As a contractor, i hate people who undermine all of us who work in this industry and will do what i can to push back.

Steve
Www.brownstonehomeinspection.com

Guest User | 2 years and 5 months ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "195579"

> @
> What do you all mean when you say “flipped”?
the buyer renovates to resell, not to live in it for any amount of time.

Guest User | 2 years and 5 months ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "195579"

> @
> What do you all mean when you say “flipped”?
the buyer renovates to resell, not to live in it for any amount of time.