Bathroom floor problems
[IMG_8025](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:sH42:img_8025.jpeg.jpg)
This is a new bathroom floor with new subfloor.
I am have a problem with the 1” mortar that was installed on the rock board. Contractor state it was need to level the floor. The subfloor was to be level in the bathroom.
Can anyone help.
Tucker
in General Discussion 1 year and 6 months ago
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16 replies
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago
chris lombardi but i am not sure what someone like he can do at this point. 516-322-9060.
Tucker | 1 year and 6 months ago
Hi Homeinspector
This is gut job on the Third floor. Plumbing all new.
The contractor refuses to remove the entire floor and has made it worse.
[IMG_8089](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:WM8d:img_8089.jpeg.jpg)
Removed the entire mosaic tile except the border . Now the new mosaic tiles are going to be higher than the existing border.
The contractor still states that this a professional job. Really?
We have stopped payments but this not going to get the job done.
Any suggestions for a honest contractor would be appreciated.
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago
The issue for what had happened here is this: homeowners who have bathrooms remodeled want the floor to go in at the same height. The contractors for some reason are not telling the homeowner that it may not be possible to get the floor at the same height without additional expense and for whatever reason this individual did not do what slimc has put forth. As a professional who has worked in all sides of this, my belief is the onus is on the contractor to advise the customer of the situation and it is NOT the responsibility of the homeowner to have to ask the question. This is why commercial buildings and larger residential buildings hire professionals to manage things and even if we do not know everything (we don’t), we at least know to ask questions to see if the contractor understands what he is getting into and we write contracts in such a way that they understand who is responsible for the outcome and in professionally managed situations we do not authorize payments if things are not put back as intended or if changes were made along the way that were not approved in writing. In so far as customers getting what they pay for, most customers do not have any idea what any of this costs anyway and would not be able to comprehend the numbers enough to understand that something big is not being included. Unfortunately today, most contractors do not understand their responsibility to their customers and they simply will put their hands up and say “i didn’t know” and the homeowner is supposed to accept that. Not good enough.
slimc | 1 year and 6 months ago
In addition to the options listed above, I’ve been reading about Ditra over 3/4 plywood. You trowel thin–set onto the plywood, roll the ditra mat onto to it, embed it into the thinset, then thin-set the tile to the Ditra. Ditra is considered a waterproofing, uncoupliing membrane to help prevent cracking.
lcrivolitorino | 1 year and 6 months ago
Just as you know many of these houses are unleveled, even in the most shortest spans, and it really is up to the home owner on how much work they are looking to do. As Home Inspector mentioned one of the first problems is the plumbing, so if the toilet flange height or an old tub waste or anything is preventing the height of the finished floor to come down, then you are where you’re at. However I would never in my own bathroom jobs put wonder board underneath a mud jod, it is like others said, just black paper, lathe and then a mortar with the electric heat in that mortar bed if that’s what you want. No need whatsoever for wonder board, that’s only in a perfect world with a 100% leveled floor. Unfortunately many customers get what they pay for or really aren’t up on par to the procedures in renovating a bathroom. So I generally tell and explain in detail how I do the job from start to finish and each step how it’s done. Sorry if you got a poor job.
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago
i wrote the contractor i spoke to for the reply above and asked about leveling floor. he told me if it was off that much, the floor should have been leveled by furring the joists if it was off a lot. if it is not off so much, the said the preferred way is to pour self-leveling over the sub floor and under the durock.
self leveling in my experience is only used on floors that are like 1/4″ off but i do not have a lot of experience in this and could be wrong.
between the time i spoke to this person this morning and now, his tile person showed up where he is working. when he told the tile person about this conversation, the tile person said “none of this makes any sense”.
know this: i retrofit new stuff into old houses all the time. i also rebuild stuff and reinstall. Sometimes when we try to put new products into old houses, things do not work the way they were or are intended. When doing this, it is up to the contractor to advise the customer that something may not work out as intended before the job begins and warn them about what can go wrong and what the risks are and let the customer have some say in the intended solution including whether it might be better to spend more money to make it right.
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago
i made a call to a contractor who does bathrooms in North Carolina. Not my first choice because the construction is different there. 58 minutes and 8 seconds later and a lot of cursing about the lack of integrity and competence in this industry, this is what i learned:
He stated he has worked on houses that had screed put in the bathroom floors including an 1858 house recently. today he is demoing a bathroom in a 1950’s house that had the metal lath and 2″ of concrete that slim mentions. he did confirm for me that when he started out on Long Island in the 1980’s they were laying bathrooms with 1.5″ of mud over 3/4″ ply (i used to watch people do this on LI in the 1970’s).
this is what he told me he does today: 3/4 sub floor, thinset mortar with 1/4″ trowel to take up any gaps between the durock and ply, 1/2 durock, thinset mortar, tile. no additional mortar is used over the durock.
I told him what was happening on Tucker’s job and he said “what is the point of the durock?”
i asked him this: when you remove these bathrooms and put modern fixtures in do you have to adjust the height of the cast iron connections? he told me in most cases yes and they have to often lower them. In some cases they cut them and piece new cast in but to avoid the BS he said they often just tell the customer to run new pvc and they do an entire new rough in. he cannot understand why we are not doing that and i told him running new pipe up the walls of these old houses, stacked the way they are, becomes a job in itself. Know that when i see this half-assed step up arrangement in houses, they are in houses where only the bathroom was done. they are never in houses where a full gut (and all of the plumbing) were changed. or even in houses where the kitchen and bath above were done at the same time. what i am saying is, it happens where budget might have been a concern and the contractor might be afraid to say to the customer “look, you have to change the waste pipe and that will involve…”.
His attitude is that the customer must be warned about the plumbing and in most cases he told me it is just easier to tell them the old waste line has to go and they change it instead of getting tied up in this BS.
I did not ask him what he would do to correct a slope in a floor. something tells me he would not be laying mortar the way tucker’s contractor is and if i tell him what the excuse is for the mortar, i will have to listen to why that is wrong and it should have been corrected some other way along with choice adjectives describing today’s contractors. i might text him and ask.
Tucker, there is still a chance that there is a slope in that floor and if there is, the rooms next to the bathroom should have a similar slope. slopes in houses do not happen in one room. they may start in one room (from a thousand pounds of concrete) but they carry to the next room.
I have never done a bathroom myself so i am only pulling this together from observations and talking to this individual.
If you wish to call me, you may.
Steve
Brownstonehomeinpsection.com
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago
so the old floor was probably laid on screed which was partially set down in between the joists and coming up a little above them. i am not sure how that system would impact the current height when assembled with modern material. that was the old, old school way. then they began laying mortar on wire mesh as Slimc says and yes, that must be like 2″ thick. by the 1980’s they were laying 1.5″ of mortar on (i think) 3/4″ underlayment. now, this gets confusing and we went through this in my own house when my better half called someone to tile our entry way/vesibule. they ripped up what ever finish floor had been there and put down cement or backer board (1/4″? or 1/2″) and then a thin layer of thinset and then tile. I did not see the needed height i thought they would need to do something that i though would be closer to what slimc states. when i heard about the plan, i called them up asking if their thin board and minimal thinset mortar under the tile would support the tiles without them cracking. they told me “yes” and that was 7 yrs ago and all is good.
I just looked this up, with the use of the durock, durock states this can be put over 5/8″ ply. 1/2″ durock, thinset, tile.
the person laying tucker’s tile is trying to do some old school way on top of the durock which does not seem to make sense – why bother with the durock? he is doing neither what slimc says nor what the modern instructions from durock call for (i just googled it). So this person is leveling the floor but adding a bed of mortar? so is the floor higher in the back than in the front and that is why this has to be done and now he will step up into his bathroom? how was the old bathroom floor? when water landed on it did it flow toward the bathroom door where you are now going to have a step up?
if i had to level a floor (i am not a tiler and have never done a full bathroom), i probably would have laid the subfloor, used leveling (pending discussion with durock) and then put down the durock. then a 1/4″ layer of thinset and the tile. done.
Even if the old floor was unlevel, with the thinner modern materials, it sounds like this could have been done by leaving the floor lower in the back and lifting it just a little in the front. Something does not smell right here. i am trying to call someone to confirm what is needed to lay a tile floor when using durock.
slimc | 1 year and 6 months ago
The height difference is not ideal, but I would worry more about whether you will get cracking tiles. Also, I wonder where the heat mat was placed?
slimc | 1 year and 6 months ago
It is my understanding that when doing a mortar bed, that the bed be 2 inches thick with wire lathe on the bottom – this is known as a jersey mud job and is used by most old school tile setters to ensure the floor is strong and level.
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago
tucker, my number is on my home inspection website. brownstonehomeinspection.com
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago
I have seen this happen a lot and my thought is it has something to do with the height of the old tub outlet, new tub outlet, and waste line connection. I do not do bathrooms and have never asked anyone about this but there is a height issue. In so far as him possibly bs’ing you, that could happen because he is afraid you will say “you should have anticipated this”.
All this is conjecture but there has to be a reason why this happens.
Tucker | 1 year and 6 months ago
Home inspector
Can u share your #?
The problem is the 1” mortar bed. It should have been plywood, rock board, heat mat , thin set with marble floor. The contractor stated that the house is old and not level and required the 1” mortar bed to level the floor.
Now we have a large step to get into the bathroom and the heat mat will not function with so much mortar.
I really want to ripe the whole floor out.
The marble mosaic was so uneven with lipid age
Contractor is blaming everything on the old house. He did nothing to level the subfloor.
Need suggestions .
cate | 1 year and 6 months ago
If I remember correctly, the edge of the marble was flush with the jamb. It probably looked similar to a threshold for a front door.
cate | 1 year and 6 months ago
Is the problem it is too thick? The unfinished edge? I am not a fan of bathrooms with high floors requiring a step up. However, I have seen it handled very nicely in some homes. My favorite approach is one I saw in a renovated Italianate in Greenpoint. Instead of installing a saddle, they finished the edge of the tile with a piece of marble at the entrance to the bathroom. It seemed like a step that was elegant and unobtrusive.
justinromeu26 | 1 year and 6 months ago
Tucker. Since we have met, call me about this. If i have some clarification, i might be able to help you.