Basement legality question

Can someone explain to me how this house has a legal basement apartment? It was an Alt 2 renovation filed by Schnall.
The house looks to me like a typical 2 story + cellar house, with a basement less than 50% above grade. Therefore the bottom apt wouldn’t be legal. But the permits seem to indicate that it is 2 stories, basement and cellar. Maybe the house is on a slope so the back of the basement is above ground enough to make it legal? The floor plan doesn’t show any mechanicals. Does this house really have a subterranean cellar level?
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/292-Rutland-Rd-Brooklyn-NY-11225/30665184_zpid/

chemosphere

in General Discussion 8 years and 2 months ago

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BobMarvin | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Most of the PLG/Lefferts Manor blocks between Bedford and Rogers Avenue have houses like these mentioned by jimhillra at their eastern end. AFAIK the basements did not originally have living space but, I think, they can be legally renovated for such a use (absent, of course, a separate apartment, which is banned by the restrictive deed covenant and the R2 zoning).

jimhillra | 8 years and 2 months ago

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I can tell you that we had a 2 story plus basement, no cellar in Prospect Lefferts Gardens. It was a one family, but the lowest level was definitely a basement. It had a living room and 3 piece bathroom, as well as other rooms that would violate the provisions for using a cellar that way. We did the height calculations relative to the curb, filed it as a basement, and the DOB accepted it as such. If the owner had wanted to, we could have separated the basement as a dwelling unit, and the DOB would have accepted that because it was a basement, putting aside of course the local one-family restrictions of PLG.

yudashasom | 8 years and 2 months ago

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https://www.compass.com/listing/282-garfield-place-brooklyn-ny-11215/6d2e4a228347c7db25364e780903145a0e7100e4/?origin_type=Listing+Preview

chemosphere | 8 years and 2 months ago

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JImhillra and Ed_kopel_Arch can you point me to an example of a 1900-1910 attached rowhouse, with 2 stories + basement and no cellar, with a legal basement apt?

agdipierro

in General Discussion 8 years and 2 months ago

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The house is a two family residence. You may have a dwelling unit in the basement but not the cellar. A three fixture bathroom is, however, allowable in the cellar of a one or two family residence providing that it meets the criteria of building department TPPN 10 of 2011.

workisfun | 8 years and 2 months ago

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RIght. My lower level is essentially at grade, maybe even a bit above, based on the sidewalk. The front yard is built up with backfill about 3 feet. Some neighbors do not have the build up in front. The back opens up to a 7×20 sitting area. From there, a few steps up to the rest of the back yard. Of the three sides, there is nowhere that the space is more than 50% below the ground level immediately outside. And grade just goes down from there. We considered excavating for more height, but that would have worked against this. So we took down the ceiling rock and exposed the beams! Looks great.

jimhillra | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Keep in mind that the grade plane can be defined anywhere from the curb to the front of the house. We’ve seen many basements that are very low relative to the grade at the house, but get by because the curb is much lower and the grade is built up towards the house.

workisfun | 8 years and 2 months ago

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1925 semi-attached. 20×65.

chemosphere | 8 years and 2 months ago

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workisfun is your house a 1900-1910 row house?

workisfun | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Isn’t grade the sidewalk level? My lowest level is the “basement”. It is slightly more than 50% above grade.

chemosphere | 8 years and 2 months ago

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OK lemme rephrase this. This looks to me like a 2 story + cellar house circa 1900-1910. There are 10,000s of these all over Brooklyn and Queens. Can anyone point me to another example of one with a legal, basement-level apt, in which the basement is the lowest level of the house?

adam_dahill | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Looks like an English Basement to me which would be fine if it had kitchen living rooms etc.. Was the configuration flipped from top floor rental to English basement rental? If the bottom two floors were combined that would make sense. I personally agree that having a entire separate unit in the English basement seems not 100% legit but I can’t comment unless I reviewed the plans etc..

chemosphere | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Sorry, meant to post this picture. http://cdn-img2.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/74/262513074.jpg

chemosphere | 8 years and 2 months ago

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[262513074](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s2/:brownstoner:ozxE:262513074.jpg.jpg) I know you can’t judge with a picture. And anything is possible. But I’ve seen dozens of Brooklyn houses and I know people on this forum have seen hundreds and this just doesn’t look like a basement that is 50% above ground.

CarmenR | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Depending on the size of the boiler, it might be plenty. When we considered doing one of those “on demand” boilers it would have fit in a closer (without an aux storage tank.)

BobMarvin | 8 years and 2 months ago

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There is a “utility cl” shown on the lowest level floor plan. Could that be large enough to house a furnace or boiler?

CarmenR | 8 years and 2 months ago

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chemosphere to be fair, my house’s garden floor looks pretty similar to that and we were like 55% above grade or something and have a bedroom down there with no problems (DOB inspection passed without issue.) We also have a cellar under our garden floor and our house is not totally dissimilar to the picture you posted.

It is weird that there’s no mention of the mechanicals on the floorplan and no stairs, I’ll certainly give you that!

BobMarvin | 8 years and 2 months ago

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No, they don’t. However looking at a photograph is not enough to tell for sure.

chemosphere | 8 years and 2 months ago

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Do these look like 2 story + basement + cellar houses to you? https://www.google.com/maps/place/292+Rutland+Rd,+Brooklyn,+NY+11225/@40.6593786,-73.951053,3a,75y,178.19h,89.56t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sAnLpWu_Gd8S1nHDEBvyG_Q!2e0!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c25b6e560d4799:0x9ddd04d5ec51161c!8m2!3d40.6591805!4d-73.9511041!6m1!1e1