Advice/tips for a first-time home renovator?
Hi All – I have recently closed on a home purchase and will be undertaking a major gut renovation. I am a single mom with two elementary-school aged kids and a demanding full-time job. I note this to say that my time is limited and so I have to be super efficient with the time and attention I have for the project. I will do what I have to do but would love to avoid any major pitfalls as well as do the right things to make it go as smoothly as possible. My architect has been handling all the permit stuff and so far, she has been the key liaison with the selected contractor. I would love to crowdsource all your advice and tips regarding how to engage/partner with the contractor as well as things to be sure to avoid/not do to keep the project on time and budget. I know every project is unique and every contractor is different, but any dos and don’ts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.
InBklyn76
in General Discussion 4 years and 4 months ago
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14 replies
greenworks | 4 years and 4 months ago
All great points but I’ll add that you should never – never – let a potential contractor “hey little lady” you, even if you don’t know a hand saw from a circular. The minute you sense that from a potential contractor (they’re usually pretty overt) show them the door.
I’ve initially tried to put up with some of that stuff only to find out later that the hey little lady contractors are usually awful in other ways too.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 4 months ago
Lurker mentions the DCA. i suspect relying on the DCA for something like this would be like relying on someone wearing an orange apron for renovation advice. you want to select people who you know will never allow something to get to the point that even the threat of DCA is being used on them.
i wish to elaborate a little more on something i said above with time and money and i think that Colonial pretty well hits it on the head when she (?) says “you may want your 100k kitchen but the contractor says your waste line..”. If money is a concern, there are ways to still do things and do them correctly with compromise. Some (better) contractors can find ways around things but it can be risky for them. Here is the catch, if you have a number a contractor is comfortable doing a job at and you begin trying to negotiate the price down without offering something up, the contractor will think you are asking him to give up what is basically his “pay”. I am not sure how all contractors feel about what i am about to say but i will say it: if a customer begins th e conversation by offering to give something up and the contractor actually likes the customer (the customer is realistic and negotiates in earnest, professional and treats the project more like a “partnership” with a skilled individual who has his own money concerns), that contractor might want to see you get what you want and will be more likely to begin looking at ways to help you pull the price down – even though doing so might make the job a tad harder for them. keep something in mind when dealing with contractors, contrary to what some believe, many of us cannot afford many of the things that go into some of these houses. So be appreciative in any negotiation especially if a contractor has done a lot of leg work putting costs together and that they must then do more work to make a change. assume some of the responsibility for this, as if you were a coworker or partner. if you treat them this way, you will have them doing things with a lot more ease. some people can have contractors eating out of their hands – the trick is to not let the contractor know you know that-
ceci | 4 years and 4 months ago
Welcome to homeownership and “Good Luck!!”
Guest User | 4 years and 4 months ago
If you do visit frequently, I would suggest taking a ton of photos, that you hope you are lucky enough to never need. Document the before and then each layer of the house as it gets exposed, and then as it goes in. If something gets disputed down the road, or a problem occurs a few years from now, to know what’s behind your surfaces can be very helpful.
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 4 months ago
to what Lurkar is saying: if the contractor is not under bidding jobs (which happens) and he or she does not have some sort of addiction, he should not be using money to fund other jobs and i am not sure the ones who do so “love” to do it. something is wrong if they are doing it and my guess is, they are not happy about it themselves. People have said it on here before and i will say it again: “if the price is too good to be true, it is too good to be true”. if a contractor makes a mistake bidding, who suffers? the customer or the contractor’s children? or both? (i am not talking about contractors here who get a payment and leave on vacation). when i worked in commercial or for professionals, they would not even look at the lowest bids. i had a boss once tell me that he bid a job a Brookhaven National Lab and he was the 14th lowest bidder (bidding to plans drawn by an architect) and he got the job; they cut the others because they thought they were too low and would not be able to complete the job in a professional manner.
as you think about what othe rs are saying here, and all of them have shared good advice, see if you can gain some insight from this, as you hear it from me, a very small contractor:
last fall I got a call from a small coop in manhattan. the woman (the president) wanted me to come in a talk to her about restoring their doors. she let it slip that she was going to meet with a few other contractors (and not one other contractor, but a few of them; they were shopping the job) and i told her “i want you to want me because i am good, not because you think i am cheap”. she said “we have to get the best price because there are 8 people here who have to agree and that will be hard”. i told her “you are compromising quality”. i told her i was not “interested in meeting people who do not put quality first”. a little while later i got an email from her that said “best price yes, but never compromise quality”. that woman was making a huge mistake.
if the woman above had a professional manager handling this, he or she would interview those contractors and would not even produce the lowest quotes. why should he? why should he put his job on the line? Eventually pros learn to hide the risky quotes and at some point they do not even call people who are incompetent (when i was working for a HOA in North Carolina, i was young and the company i worked for was new to the market in that area, so it was easy to make this kind of mistake; but once established, you know who to call and who not to call and you skip the BS). if a pro was fielding quotes for the woman above, he would not show her the risky quotes and the coop would pay more and they would never know the difference; they will not lose sleep over that 20% because they would not know about it; they’d still eat and pay the bills and take vacation AND they would have a better job done on the doors.
with respect to money and time, this is what a VP once told me when i was working for a corporation: “every construction project is over budget and behind schedule”:. i still recall this man saying that mostly because i am not sure what he meant by it: is every project ‘over budget’ and ‘behind schedule’ or is it simply that there is a perception that every project is over budget and behind schedule? Be realistic with time and money and the abilities of contractors when time and money might be limited and you will probably be happier with the over all project.
Lurker | 4 years and 4 months ago
Use an extremely detailed contract and add it to the Dept of Consumer Affairs template–that way if things go wrong you can appeal to the DCA, which licenses contractors. Have daily or at least weekly schedules of work that you agree on and stick to, and don’t be pushed into getting ahead on payments –contractors love to fund other work with your money, which is actually not legal. Don’t put down a major deposit (the DCA contract limits it to a set percentage of the job which is low) and just make it a non-arguable point that payments occur based on stages of work, period. Also get assurance your subs are being paid on schedule. Ideally don’t do an Alt 1, or your life will be turned upside down. And expect a huge tax hit next year–ours doubled.
colonialrevival | 4 years and 4 months ago
Steve has offered up some great suggestions. I second his note on double checking the materials. Your guy may be good, but are his subs? Is he communicating the right things? There are 100,000 different minute details in any home renovation; it is natural for a handful of them to need double checking, alignment on, or redoing. And above all, take notes! Recap every phone call or conversation with an email. The one time you don’t, you’ll wish you had.
What I haven’t seen mentioned is this: be prepared for changes, and have at least 30% of your budget set aside for change orders or scope creep. As you peel the layers back, the house will show you things you couldn’t have seen previously. Deterioration, poor maintenance, or bad work all comes to light once you start getting your hands dirty. While your sights may be set on that $100,000 kitchen, your contractor may be letting you know he needs $15,000 to replace your collapses waste lines under the house. These things happen, the houses are old. Expect the worst and if all you have to do is a bit of repointing or floor lev eling, then you’re in good shape.
And lastly, research the materials you want and SPECIFY THEM! If you don’t want the finish contractor using cheapo caulk that cracks into oblivion once we get below 20% humidity, spec Big Stretch by Sashco! Research finishes, sheens, fittings, coatings, profiles, etc. Let your architect and your contractor help you, but ultimately YOU make the call.
Augustiner | 4 years and 4 months ago
These are all great tips, and certainly correct.
But theory and reality are not always correlating with each other.
Whatever the norm, if it exists at all, the installer qualification varies and most don’t care what they do. Find someone who takes pride in their work, and stay positive even if you’re upset. Be a team player or pretend to be, it gets you further.
In the end it all comes down to money.
If you pay 1 mil + to renovate 3 stories you certainly can expect certain things. Otherwise just close your eyes and you’ll find out that 70% perfection and 100 % of your health is better than 100% perfection and no joy in life .
andriywww1990 | 4 years and 4 months ago
look at what cate is saying: someone has to check that deliveries are accurate;
i meet people all the time who do not understand that they are paying for certain products but it is the customer’s job to make sure the contractor is using those products. when i was the field person (site person) for a property management firm my job was to look at all roofing materials, finishes, anything that came on the site, to be sure it was what was spec’d. check the thickness of the drywall. if they are laying subfloor, be sure they have screws for that and that they do not think drywall screws are all around wood screws (some of the rocket scientists we have out there do not understand that a drywall screw is a drywall screw; that is why we call it that; they will hang doors with them if you let them; they will hang cabinets with them and when you load the cabinets, the screws will crack and they use them on sub floor and again they crack and the floor moves). when i worked for a management company, i took notes or saved labels. now a days they would have had me taking photos with my phone.
to ensure that the contractors do what they are being paid to do, include this line in any contracts: “change orders are to be in writing and approved by homeowner. failure to adhere to this will delay or stop payments.”
and i wrote about this on here a few weeks back but it seemed to go unnoticed by many and the thing about this is, i meet people who encounter contractors who refuse to follow industry standards or the manufacturer’s directions. they buy what is cheaper and the customer suffers later or the boss is not around so the workers take a short cut (they customer will find out about the issues two or three years down the road when finishes and adhesives fail). keep in mind, there are “industry standards” – the AIA has industry standards as well as the Hardwood Flooring Manufacturers Association and i am sure other specialties have their own (windows, roofing, etc) and cans of paint and adhesives and flooring all come with directions. Be sure this line is put in all contracts with the GC and with the subs:
“All work is to be done in a professional manner according to industry standards (reference them if you need) or manufacturers instructions. any change to such standards or directions must be approved in writing by homeowner or the GC and subs performing such work will not get paid”
if you already have a contract with the GC, i would amend it to include those statements. if he wants more money to sign a contract with these statements, something is wrong and he was planning to cheat you from the get go. anyone who refuses to sign it, send them down the road.
all contracts that were written when i worked for a firm with professional supervision over me had those to lines in it and in truth, we NEVER had any issues. they also knew that if they were working for professionals and pulled this kind of bs, they would not only not get paid, but they would not win in court; it kept everyone on their toes and on the up and up.
cate | 4 years and 4 months ago
Great! If you can make all these decisions while waiting for permits, and everything is delivered before construction begins, you should be in excellent shape. Someone has to check the deliveries are accurate, dye lots match, etc., also. Re site visits, it’s a good idea just to check in daily if you can and look around even if everything seems fine. Some things that could potentially go wrong: Leaking pipes, electrical fixtures or medicine cabinets installed off center or in the wrong place, tile installed incorrectly or with uneven grout lines or they mix up the tile and the grout, new plaster not level or smooth, new doors or windows admitting air, paint stripping removing an adjacent finish or splashing old lead paint goo onto somewhere else, drips when painting, using the wrong gutter on the roof, etc.
anotherposter | 4 years and 4 months ago
Partially because of supply chain issues the last year, a lot of things (random mechanical parts, tiles, door handles, etc.) can take even longer than usual to get so picking and ordering things available sooner is better. The fact that you’ll want things to coordinate makes it trickier.
Try to keep everything in writing (emails are best, but text can be useful) with communication so you can all easily find conversations, links, decisions, etc. After a phone or in person meeting (during which you take notes) email everything discussed.
InBklyn76 | 4 years and 4 months ago
Thank you, both. The architect provided me with a very long spreadsheet of all decisions (down to every finish) and set deadlines so I am working through that while we wait for permits. I think this will help get a sense of whether my decisions are “in-budget” or whether I am exceeding and need to make different decisions. I know this is an amateur question, but let’s say I visit the job site every day, given I have no expertise or experience, what should I be asking/looking for? How can I best inform/equip myself to manage the project? I want to be as competent as possible given my total lack of experience.
Augustiner | 4 years and 4 months ago
A gut reno is more or less a full time job, even if you are not on site and supervising the day to day business.
There are lots of little decisions to make, many of them connected to money exceeding the budget. Unless you can hire a manager to replace you, you’ll be the one who cares the most about your project and has to make all the decisions and double check everything anyone tells you. Unless you trust they’re all doing the right thing all the time.
cate | 4 years and 4 months ago
Great you are working with an architect. Make decisions and order materials and finishes ASAP and don’t live in the house while the renovation is happening.