2 Family vs 3 Family Reno: Changing CofO?
We just bought a townhouse and are doing a full interior Reno. It currently has a c of o for 3 families and has 3 kitchens (even tho it’s only been occupied by one family for awhile). We’d rather avoid red tape of changing C of O. Questions:
1. Can we remove one of the kitchens and not change cofo?
2. I’m not even sure if the city recognizes “3 Family” anymore – I thinks it’s now call “multi family” so is a two family considered multi family?
3. Am I right I’m assuming it would be faster to NOT change our c of o? SPEED is a top priority and we are not not changing exterior envelope for that reason.. Many thx
intheheights
in General Discussion 7 years and 6 months ago
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jimhillra | 7 years and 5 months ago
That’s correct. Going from 3 families to 2 is a change in use (1 & 2 families are J3 or R3 depending upon which code year, 3 families are J2 or R2). Reducing the number of families from 3 to 2 crosses the line between use groups, so would require a C of O. This memo would not apply as that change means the proposed use is no longer a multi family.
Guest User | 7 years and 5 months ago
my gut says that the provision cited by spud doesn’t apply to your situation, however, i’m not expert. in general if speed is of essence, get an expediter!
Guest User | 7 years and 5 months ago
my gut says that the provision cited by spud doesn’t apply to your situation, however, i’m not expert. in general if speed is of essence, get an expediter!
WRPListings | 7 years and 5 months ago
It seems to me that this provision is only for multiple family dwellings- so basically apartment buildings where two apts are being combined, not going from one family to two family or two family to multiple (or the opposite). Here’s the wording, I’d love to know if I’m right about this or if you can go from one classification to another based on this provision.
“In order to simplify combining of apartments, this provision is now extended for all multiple dwelling buildings, including both old and new law tenements, converted dwellings and new code multiple dwellings.”
scuds | 7 years and 6 months ago
You don’t need to change to CofO to combine apartments:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/ppn/tppn0397.shtml
jimhillra | 7 years and 6 months ago
Just because this was part of the discussion, I wanted to add in that the DOB just released an increase to penalty fees for work without a permit: http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/work_without_permit_civil_penalty_sn.pdf:
Penalty for Work Without a Permit on a one- or two-family dwelling:
The penalty for Work Without a Permit violation is increased to SIX TIMES the amount of the fee payable for the permit and the minimum has increased to $600 with a maximum penalty of $10,000.
Penalty for Work Without a Permit on other than a one- or two-family dwelling:
The penalty for Work Without a Permit violation is increased to TWENTY ONE TIMES the amount of the fee payable for the permit and the minimum has increased to $6,000 with a maximum penalty of $15,000.
WRPListings | 7 years and 6 months ago
I’m curious what you decide to do here…while we all want to file for permits and do the right thing, it seems that the DOB makes that very very hard. It sounds like you’d be in a dilemma- either file a plan with three kitchens that is not exactly accurate for what you are ultimately planning to do (2 kitchens instead of 3), or file for a new C of O as a two family, or not file at all and do the work without permits. We faced a different but vaguely similar dilemma. What are you thinking you’ll do?
bk123 | 7 years and 6 months ago
ps. check the fee per meter, it may be cheaper long run to remove them. I have that situation in manhattan on an apt combination. we are removing 1 elec meter to save a large fee.
bk123 | 7 years and 6 months ago
If you change the # of dwelling units the CO absolutely must change. DOB will not accept plans showing only 2 kitchens knowing it is a 3 family (every dwelling unit needs a kitchen- DOH!) 3 families are “multilple dwellings” and must adhere to the MDL. When you drop down to a 2 family, that goes away which is helpful!. This is an Alt 1 application, and is not a big deal if done properly. I converted a 1 fam to 2 in the Bronx and the plans were approved in 3 weeks! During the construction phase, the hang ups are always Con ed and getting new elec meters and gas work approved. DOB does not care about the number of elec meters so keep those the same. http://nyc-permit-expeditors.com
intheheights | 7 years and 6 months ago
Ok that’s helpful – choosing architect now – thx you for clarifying process !
eileengray | 7 years and 6 months ago
Landmarks has nothing to do with removing kitchens. If you are doing exterior work – new doors/windows/brownstone facade, you will need a Permit for Minor Work from LPC. If you are not doing any exterior work, your architect should make an application to LPC for a Certificate of No Effect. That is usually issued promptly. You will not get an approval from DOB without the LPC action. But it should not be a “big slow down”
intheheights | 7 years and 6 months ago
OMG I must not have communicated something impt because we are ABSOLUTELY getting permits!! Im just trying to avoid big slow downs like a hearing at Landmarks so we’re trying not to make changes that would require that. I thought that if you don’t change c of O it simplifies things. I’m doing everything by the book but want to avoid unnecessary red tape…
jimhillra | 7 years and 6 months ago
I’m going to be the buzzkill skeptic architect here and warn you that what you are doing is not allowed by the DOB. You are creating two potential violations. The first is obviously work without a permit, and the second is use contrary to C of O. The second is less of an issue, but because you’re in a multi-family (3 families and up, 2 families is in the 1 or 2 family classification) the penalty fees can be serious.
Penalty fees are based upon the filing fee for the work when you file to correct the violation. In this case, if you get caught and want to legalize the removal of the kitchen, you’d have to file to remove the kitchen, which would mean a new C of O. The DOB penalty will be 14 times the filing fee, and there may be an ECB penalty on top of that for a few more thousand. On top of that, you’ll get a stop work order prohibiting you from doing any work until the job is filed and penalties paid.
I know people do it all the time and don’t get caught , but I have also been hired by people who did get caught an had to pay tens of thousands of dollars. It was painful, and I hate to see people go through that unnecessarily.
daveinbedstuy | 7 years and 6 months ago
I’d leave it as is and just remove the kitchens. Just be aware that when you sell, the buyer’s lender may want to see kitchens to match the C of O so leave the plumbing in the walls. If you can do it over a longer period of time, do the renovation more piecemeal (or without permits) so thsat you don’t have to change the C of O. What Putnamdenizen said.
Putnamdenizen | 7 years and 6 months ago
My house was configured as a two family when I bought it, although department of finance lists it as 3 family. No C of O, empty i-card file. Taxes very low. I’ve just left well alone. (I once asked how to get DOF to correct to 2 family [because of additional registration requirements for apartments in 3 family house] and got my head bitten off by someone here.) Subtraction of use generally, according to those here, doesn’t cause problems. However it sounds like you may be filing for permits, so maybe that will trigger need to change c of o? Well I guess my answer isn’t terribly helpful. Maybe file under neighborly musing?