sprinklers, fire escape, 3-family.

a question for the architects/contractors out there familiar with city fire codes, regarding a three-story house, built in 1905 as a one family. No C of O (because it’s pre-1938.) It has been lived in for decades as a de-facto three family (three kitchens.) ACRIS says it’s a 3-family, BISweb says “Department of Finance Building Classification:C0-WALK-UP APARTMENT. There is no sprinkler or fire escape, and never has been. My question is, when does this become a problem? When the house is sold? When someone applies for a C-of-O? When someone tries to get a C-of-O and change the use to a two or one family? Can such a house be sold without doing anything, as long as there’s no C-of-O? Any pitfalls I’m not considering?

berniceshola

in Fire 11 years and 3 months ago

6

Please log in, in order to post replies!

6 replies

Newest Oldest

GreenThinker | 11 years and 3 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4941 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4929 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "98498"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(12) "GreenThinker"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BUyWaQ.9zd8QKKjw0tTw.V/FyEYyLC0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(12) "greenthinker"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "Moscicki.adam@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(23) "/forums/users/greenman/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:19:42"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(12) "GreenThinker"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(98498)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

yes, thats a 2 story home. Usually 3 family homes have 3 stories, 3 or more stories means you need a fire escape or sprinklers. So, most people just say well, if it’s a 3 family it needs a fire escape. But in your situation, the building does not need one. As far as the fire code is concerned it meets all exit requirements. Since it only takes 1 set of stairs to exit to the outside. You can also buy one of those window fire ladders for your tenants if you want to be on the safe side.

berniceshola | 11 years and 3 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4940 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4939 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "209445"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(12) "berniceshola"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BGsTnsAVobWp.DpbrEb6Qh3ZaqX3oC0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(12) "berniceshola"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(33) "c.r.ystal.nel.s.on.3445@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2024-06-29 07:24:25"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(12) "berniceshola"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(209445)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

it’s an attached limestone, with a cellar, garden level, parlor level, and second floor. Does that make it a two-story? And hence it doesn’t need a sprinkler/fire escape? There never has been one, since it was built as a one-family. I’d guess it’s been used as a three family for at least fifty years.

labarnett | 11 years and 3 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4936 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4942 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "138596"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "labarnett"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BSvZGjpw.0IMRXMCHPRz9avqMtAR9j1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(9) "labarnett"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(20) "leslie@labarchny.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(58) "http://bstoner.wpengine.com/forums/users/lab_architecture/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:18:41"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(9) "labarnett"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(138596)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Resident2 above has pretty much covered what you need to know. This doesn’t become a problem; it is a problem. De facto occupancy is meaningless to DOB and FDNY if it is not legal per any available documentation. Moreover, if someone were to get hurt due to improper egress, you could have a serious problem on your hands, even if you bought the house as-is. Ignorance of an illegal condition is not a solid defense, and it would not stop you from getting a violation if DOB or FDNY were to inspect the premises. One additional note, I would not necessarily depend upon an expediter to give you all the answers you need for your code concerns. You need to make sure you hire someone who really is a code consultant. I think an Architect who specializes in such matters is a better bet, but as an Architect who regularly reviews code & zoning, I’m admittedly biased. : ) One last note – I’ve had clients who bought property and unfortunately not all code-related issues were uncovered during the title search. It’s good to have an expert on your side if there are questionable items during buying/selling, so you don’t wind up buying something without knowing what you’re getting into.

GreenThinker | 11 years and 3 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4939 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4941 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "98498"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(12) "GreenThinker"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BUyWaQ.9zd8QKKjw0tTw.V/FyEYyLC0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(12) "greenthinker"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(23) "Moscicki.adam@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(23) "/forums/users/greenman/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:19:42"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(12) "GreenThinker"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(98498)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

As long as the building is no more then 2 stories, a fire escape or sprinkler system isn’t needed.

resident2 | 11 years and 3 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4940 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4943 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "181002"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "resident2"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BYKCrEpDU34.3RJghRPk8/Xp1XpCve/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(9) "resident2"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "Jamanda1255@Yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:07:33"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(9) "resident2"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(181002)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

What the department of finance has it as is not a legal use. There are pre C of O legal three families, but they all have either a fire escape or a sprinkler system. It sounds like it is highly unlikely that you could get a letter of no objection from the buildings department giving it a legal use as a 3 family. Unless as the gentleman above asks, there is an I-Card in the buildings dept. referencing a 3 family, in which case you would need to find out which it had, a fire escape or a sprinkler system and put it back quick before someone notices that it has been taken out! 🙂 The chances are it is NOT a 3 family; so what are the problems now, today using it as a 3 family? You cannot legally collect rent or evict any tenant. An Insurance company will never pay out for a fire etc once they see that it is illegally occupied, you may even be arrested if a tenant is hurt, it is a criminal offence to “Over occupyy” a house. Have you checked the HPD web site to see what they have it listed as? What ever they have it, as is what it is. As for selling it, it will come up in the title search what it is, it is better to find out so that it can be properly disclosed before the title comes in and there is not a stand off with the buyer forcing you to make it whatever you claimed it to be in the contract. All the dirty laundry shows up in the title report, it is better to sell it for what it legally is and get any illegal tenants out before it goes on the market, remove the extra kitchens. The cost of making a 1 or 2 family into a legal 3 with todays codes is probably not the best use of your time or money. If the HPD site is not clear as to what it is hire an expeditor to go through all the records to find out for you and make it the best for what it is. ( One & two families often sell for more than three’s in this market)

jockdeboeraia | 11 years and 3 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4941 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4936 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "40876"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(13) "jockdeboeraia"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BTfkV3DGGseot8oNyuG6kVhsNhUD2n1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(13) "jockdeboeraia"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(22) "jdeboer@jockdeboer.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(31) "/forums/users/deboerarchitects/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:15:51"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(20) "VK4zWrfWbTPHLfSSlGZI"
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(13) "jockdeboeraia"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(40876)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Is there an i-card? Is it a masonry structure?