Is a ladder to the roof a legal means of egress in a 3-family brownstone?

Hello, I just moved into a 3-family brownstone in Brooklyn and I live on the top floor (the building has cellar, garden, parlor, 3rd and 4th floors). I have been trying to figure out if my building is in compliance with the NYC fire code but I cannot easily find answers on the NYFD or Housing Dept websites. Anyway, there is no fire escape on my building. There is no sprinkler system. The landlord has told me that our second means of egress is a roof exit. The roof is accessed via a ladder located in the main hallway in the building (so if the fire is in the hallway and we can’t exit down the stairs, this means of egress may be inaccessible as well!). Additionally, we must climb up a steep ladder and unlatch a very heavy wooden cover and move it aside (there are no hinges) to climb onto the roof. This is not easy to do and would certainly be impossible for children or the elderly. Can anyone tell me if this is a legal means of egress, or should our landlord also install a fire escape?

mam1220

in Fire 10 years and 7 months ago

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brokelin | 10 years and 7 months ago

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Don’t know what’s legal, but that really isn’t the point, is it … as you aren’t going to get a landlord to install a sprinkler system or fire escape, are you? When we redid our coop’s roof, we changed out our old hatch cover for a spring loaded steel one that was so much easier to open and close. (We were mostly concerned about the security of the old roof hatch from intruders, or at least that was my main concern, as the old one wasn’t hard to open as much as it was hard to close.) This wasn’t terribly expensive, and you could ask your landlord to make this means of egress more accessible. However, unless one regularly climbs out to the roof and is used to hauling themselves over the edge, it isn’t that easy the first time, especially for the elderly or some children. I think if you are really concerned about that, you live in a building with fire escapes. As break-ins are far more common than fires, I’ve always hated my fire escapes (and have had break-ins through them), I was most happy when I stopped living in walk-ups and brownstones and had elevator buildings with no fire escapes – I never felt safe from intruders until then – and I love having windows that can’t be accessed from the outside. Pick your threat, I say. If you cook safely, don’t leave candles unattended, and don’t smoke, you are not likely to have a fire unless the electrical is outdated or overloaded. Of course, you can’t control what others in the building will do.

Putnamdenizen | 10 years and 7 months ago

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Yes they should move their stuff. And no, it’s not hard to install an new bilco hatch.

sunbury | 10 years and 7 months ago

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I used to have a metal ladder going to roof but changed it a few years ago to one of those Home Depot pull down foldaway ladder things, whatever they are called, attic ladders perhaps. I would like to get a Bilco door since it is a little troublesome to remove the “lid” to get onto roof. My tenants in my 2 family use the large closet that has access to roof as a storage area. Should I insist they move their stuff and keep access to the roof clear? Are Bilco doors easily installed or is it a major project dealing with cutting/sealing the roof?

mam1220 | 10 years and 7 months ago

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Thanks for the information some of you have provided. The reason I could not be sure of fire access when I moved into the apartment was because the owner’s renovation of the brownstone was still underway when we signed the lease. I asked several times about fire escape routes and was told each time that “we’ll get back to you on that.” Now, renovation is completely and it’s clear that the roof hatch is our only secondary means of egress. The owner is a nice guy who did a great job on the renovation and I assumed everything would be done up to code on a brand new gut renovation.

resident2 | 10 years and 7 months ago

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All three family and above buildings must have either a sprinkler system or a fire-escape + access in an emergency to the roof; this is under “old code”. If it has a sprinkler system, it is often only in the hallways and perhaps in kitchen areas. And often only the heads show, they are not all large ugly pipes. But why did you not look at all of this before you rented the apartment? Especially if you have small children or elderly people that may be difficult to move quickly in an emergency?

housepoor | 10 years and 7 months ago

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It is unusual that a multi-family (anything over 2 family) does not have either sprinklers or a fire escape. Are you sure there aren’t sprinklers in the hallways (that counts as an additional means of egress)? I hate to say it –but could the house be a legal 2 family?

daveinbedstuy | 10 years and 7 months ago

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If this bothers you why did you sign the lease to move in there? it was certainly knowable from the outset. Houses aren’t required to constantly be upgraded to meet code. The vast majority do not meet code in any number of ways.

slopefarm | 10 years and 7 months ago

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The issue is that sometimes people post questions here that are more designed to find a pretext for withholding rent than resolving a safety concern. So there tends to be suspicion on the part of regular readers to questions that focus on what the law requires LLs to do. Those also lead to two different kinds of discussions with the landlords. One that begins “I’m concerned about my family’s safety in the event of a fire. Can we talk about the exit routes and how safe and practical they are for us?” is a different conversation than one that begins with a demand to put in a fire escape or sprinklers. For example, roof hatch may be a viable second egress, which you would only need if the path downstairs is not passsable, if you can get out easily and then on to the next building or two so you are not trapped.

mam1220 | 10 years and 7 months ago

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@no-permits Oh I know. It’s so unreasonable for me to want to make sure my home is safe and up to code for my family. Nightmare tenant over here!

enew555 | 10 years and 7 months ago

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Something else to consider smoke rises. If there was a fire will you have time to escape.

enew555 | 10 years and 7 months ago

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I don’t believe a roof hatch is a 2nd means of egress. new fire code requires a sprinkler for 3 family, however your landlord could be grandfather in. However if landlord where to do any major permitted work on the build DoB could make him sprinkler the entire building $$$$$$.

no-permits | 10 years and 7 months ago

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you sound like a dream tenant. yes, a roof hatch is a second means of egress. believe me, if there was a fire you’d be able to push the roof hatch open without a problem. words of advice: if you start making a problem now with your landlord – guaranteed you’ll be looking for a new apartment when your lease is up.

mozeeatupu | 10 years and 7 months ago

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Hatches are meant for firemen to come into a building, not for occupants to escape. I don’t think roof hatch counts as a mean of egress but that might be different for a 3 family and when the building was built.

BobMarvin | 10 years and 7 months ago

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I had a situation like yours until quite recently. I doubt that I could have moved my heavy roof hatch fast enough to escape, if I had to do so. I just had a steel Bilco hatch installed, which is very easy to open and also far more secure than the original. However it was pretty expensive and I suspect your landlord wouldn’t want to spring for one.

bedstuyreno | 10 years and 7 months ago

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All new constructions buildings have to have sprinklers. Grandfathered buildings need two escapes routes. Sounds like the confusion is that your landlord says both are usable and you are disputing that. What happens in that situation, I’m not sure. But to be safe- ask your landlord to provide fire extinguishers to every unit and floor- and make sure all the smoke defectors are always functioning. Having those things in place will make a huge difference in case of an emergency.

mam1220 | 10 years and 7 months ago

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I just want to know what the legal requirements are.

bedstuyreno | 10 years and 7 months ago

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You want your landlord to install a fire escape? Laughable. How about you move into a building that has sprinklers or an easier escape route.