Side of stoop starting to bulge, hollow sound, weak interior.

Hi everyone.

I noticed a crack on the side of my stoop the other day, and it looks like it is bulging ever so slightly. When I knock it sounds hollow.

From other repairs to the stoop I know the (brown?)stone inside is very delicate–the layers of stone inside can chip away/disintegrate when touched. Underneath the stoop the stone is quite delicate as well.

Two questions:
1 – Should I be worried about this? I intend the replace the stoop, but hopefully not for up to 5 years.
2 – Is there anything I should to do the crack to stop anything from getting worse? I was considering applying some ready-mixed concrete patch (+pigment), but only because it might stop water from entering.

Thanks!

[Crack from above-0](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:uoHQ:file_0crackfromabove.jpg.jpg) [Crack on side of stoop-1](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:34f9:file_1crackonsideofstoop.jpg.jpg)

cdix999

in Exteriors 3 years and 5 months ago

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stevecym | 3 years and 5 months ago

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There were people in the brownstone period who had bad things to say about it. Mostly about the appearance though. Not sure about their knowledge of its longevity.

cdix999 | 3 years and 5 months ago

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Lots of great comments here, thank you all! I’ve learned a lot, and the comments have also helped me do some of my own learning.

> did i see something that you had already done a patch elsewhere?

I discovered this crack while filling large holes in the side of the stoop, as discussed in [this post](https://www.brownstoner.com/forum/#!/exterior:diy-door-and-brownstone-sto). The holes were filled with hydraulic cement and pigment, as recommended by a masonry supply store. The cement is holding well. I only noticed this crack as I prepared for that project; thankfully this side of the stoop is hidden behind my neighbor’s trashcans.

> I could be wrong, but that looks like mortar. It is too perfect to be brownstone. Too smooth in a new way. Besides, the house itself looks like red brick. Would they really put brownstone steps on a red brick house?

The stoop has a skim coat over what I’m near certain is brownstone, it’s definately brown sandstone based on the layers. The skim coat probably is mortar (cement and sand, plus pigment).

> if you peeled that damaged area off an d left it – be it two square feet or eight square feet – until next spring, would the exposed mortar underneath suffer any damage from the elements? what i am asking is, does the skim coat do more than look good? does it keep water out of the structure?

I expect (hope?) the skim coat stops some water from getting into the brownstone material, if only because the skim coat is so much sturdier than the brownstone underneath. When (gently) cleaning the holes in the brownstone prior to patching, the different exposed layers of brownstone ranged from brittle to disintgrating–one layer was basically dust. It did feel like the layers towards the deepest part of the now-filled holes were less delicate.

I think if I broke off this large piece of loose skim coat that I’d loose a lot of brownstone below it very quickly to erosion, given the layers closer to the surface seemed to be in worse shape than the deeper layers.

> I’d rip it all off. Seal open joints with mortar and in so far as any ridge left by stable mortar below, I would chamfer it with mortar to create a slope to run it away from the wall.

I like the idea of a bit of mortar to close the crack and divert water flowing down. But I think it’s become too cold and I don’t think I could handle masonry construction heating–just another area I may make mistakes.

Miraculously, duct tape I’ve got on there (cleaned the surface well first with some soap and water) is holding very well; it wont keep all water out but hopefully will leave things in better shape come springtime. I’m ready to reapply a few times throughout winter. I’ll maybe update on how this goes :).

> I would not seal the crack so as not to trap water and moisture inside and make the problem worse.

I’m not worried about trapping water, as water drips out from the underside of the stoop already. The underside of the stoop has a deteriorating superficial layer (maybe an old skim coat?) but past the surface deterioration the underside is very solid. Maybe there’s been some past cementing underneath? Maybe the stoop sits on some kind of slab?

> Based on the photo, you have a huge piece of real brownstone (sandstone)…You could consult now with a highly skilled and experienced brownstone specialist mason highly recommended by someone you know to see what they say and plan work for the spring.

I’m aware of the preservation implications of working on the stoop. I ended up with this DIY because I couldn’t get a qualified individual to take on the repair job–the two folks I was able to get to talk to me said they would do a full restoration, but would not just make repairs.

I’m now familiar with the procedure NYC LPC prescribes in their [rowhouse manual (page 44)](https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/lpc/downloads/pdf/lp_rhmanual.pdf) for “sandstone patching”. I’m not worried about my DIY repairs from a long-term preservation standpoint, since everything will get roughed, drilled, and recoated when I’ve got budget to restore the whole stoop. And the masonry supply store said that the hydraulic cement could be chipped out of the sandstone–hopefully they aren’t totatlly full of it. But given the softness of the sandstone, I can’t imagine it being too difficult for a professional to extract the cement patching without taking too much sandstone out too.

Rant:

I’m sure this is known to forum readers, but brownstone is not an ideal construction material and the brownstone sourced for most of the Brooklyn brownstone homes is known to be especially delicate. Brownstone was a cheap material, easy to cut, and easy to source. These tidbits come from this fascinating [old NYT article](https://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/04/nyregion/brownstone-the-real-thing-comes-back.html) that’s sadly paywalled. This (also paywalled) article about the [closing of the Portland brownstone quarry](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/23/nyregion/saying-goodbye-to-the-face-of-new-yorks-brownstones.html) was another interesting read.

It makes me wonder, did people 100+ years ago look at these then-new Brownstone homes and think, “wow these things are cheaply built”? Did it feel for them like it feels for me watching HGTV flips, or seeing highwayside subdivisions where all the attics are weirdly big and none of the windows match? Will sliding interior barn doors and shiplap someday be romanticized as quintessential post-millenium decorative features, the way folks now feel about original wood paneling and builtins? Will [this neighborhood](https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/7bcb57271ba8a86dc020a815cb3be00653b1312a/c=0-108-3000-1803/local/-/media/2015/10/16/Louisville/Louisville/635806096802825202-Assessments2.jpg) someday be landmarked as an example of distinctive early 21st century residential architecture? And will everyone think this neighborhood looks great, while the homeowners complain about how much maintenance the houses need and how they were built with cheap materials? Will people in the future be shocked to learn that when this subdivision was built many people thought the homes were hideous?

stevecym | 3 years and 5 months ago

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I could be wrong, but that looks like mortar. It is too perfect to be brownstone. Too smooth in a new way.

Besides, the house itself looks like red brick. Would they really put brownstone steps on a red brick house?

cate | 3 years and 5 months ago

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Based n the photo, you have a huge piece of real brownstone (sandstone), as you may know .This is not brown colored stucco. If you are in a landmark district, check with a staffer at the LPC. You could consult now with a highly skilled and experienced brownstone specialist mason highly recommended by someone you know to see what they say and plan work for the spring. (They may be traveling this time of year, so call them soon.) Ideally, you will be able to get away with repairing the crack or even the entire failing section of stone with a patch of colored stucco that will hopefully be a good-enough match. If the water is coming from elsewhere, that can be addressed. Replacing the entire stoop does not sound advisable (or cost effective).

stevecym | 3 years and 5 months ago

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I’d rip it all off. Seal open joints with mortar and in so far as any ridge left by stable mortar below, I would chamfer it with mortar to create a slope to run it away from the wall.

People will say this kind of concern is overkill on something that will be fixed in the spring and I agree it is, but one reason concave (curved) mortar joints are preferred over “struck” joints in brick is because water settles on the edge and bleeds into the joint and then we see the problems JH is alluding to.

JohnHancock | 3 years and 5 months ago

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Water is tricky as we often think it enters at a particular spot but we don’t always know for sure. I would not seal the crack so as not to trap water and moisture inside and make the problem worse. Whatever is behind the area that sounds hollow is already deteriorating and it’s too late to reverse that. Waiting until spring to really fix the problem and start fresh is what I would do

andriywww1990 | 3 years and 5 months ago

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mws212, did i see something that you had already done a patch elsewhere? i looked at the photo and if you can do that and listened to someone or read something from someone who really knows this, you know almost as much as i do about this or maybe more – though i have done a lot more than most homeowners (i did enough of this stuff when i was younger to learn i hate it).

my next question is – and i do not know the answer – but the question is, if you peeled that damaged area off and left it – be it two square feet or eight square feet – until next spring, would the exposed mortar underneath suffer any damage from the elements? what i am asking is, does the skim coat do more than look good? does it keep water out of the structure? IF (that is a big if) removing the skim coat will not allow water to damage any of the area underneath, by settling in between things, why not peel if off and leave it until next spring? or this: if we think water might get into some of the openings over the winter, remove the damaged mortar and then wait until we have a couple of w arm days and then just patch the voids and open holes and leave it all until next spring.

see what someone else says about potential damage to the structure if this were simply left open and then left open with you mortaring joints sometime in the next 3 weeks. you know that that kind of patch – on the joints only -on a 5×5 area will take you less than an hour including clean up. remember, that kind of patch does not have to look good.

i will tell you this: open joints on my chimney drove me nuts until i paid someone to point it a couple years back. it had been getting worse over several years. during that time i never considered putting any epoxy anywhere – and epoxies are a big part of my business (hilti i think makes them for mortar).

i know less about the construction of those steps than many people on this board. let’s see what others say.

cdix999 | 3 years and 5 months ago

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Thanks stevecym, for your advice.

I’m very hesitant to bust it off, since it could ending up taking off 3-4sq feet. I base this on how much area below the crack sounds “hollow” when knocked vs. when it starts to sound solid again.

Any concrete epoxy you could recommend? I’ve had problems finding a product just for sealing cracks that doesn’t require the cracked to banged open. I’m worried that the banging on the harder cement shell to open the crack will loosen up material below and cause it to fall out.

At this point, I’m trying to figure out an easy way to keep water out of the crack until spring. Maybe a polyurethane caulk? It’s been difficult to find one in brown. Maybe even a silicone caulk?

I’d like to think that duct tape (or maybe flex tape?) would work until spring if I cleaned before applying and planned on reapplying regularly, but that seems naively optimistic.

stevecym | 3 years and 5 months ago

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So I just checked. They make modern products to repair concrete. I have never used them so I cannot speak to how they work. They are not mortar based, but epoxies. If this were me and it is a 1×1 area, I would bust it off, get the dye powder like you said, and put a finish coat on it.

They have Crete Weld you can put into or on the repair area. Not sure how it works as I have used plaster weld, same maker. Also, if you pulled an area off and found that the surrounding stuff is snug but risky, you can run a bead of concrete epoxy around to hold the good but questionable stuff and let that cure and then run your mortar patch.

I am not a mason. I have done some of this and have source people to do a lot of it, albeit, not on brownstones.

stevecym | 3 years and 5 months ago

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It’s already pulling away. And yes, if water gets in it will freeze and finish the job. I do not know if ready mix will have the tenacity to hold something like that together as it is not a bonding agent perse. Trying to work it in there might be an issue. If it is not too big an area, you might consider breaking that off and using the ready mix to patch the area using a large trowel. Be careful, once you start removing it may grow fast.

Maybe talk to a real concrete supply place and see if there is anything you can put in there as it is now.