Rear wall insulation and siding

Hi, We are planning to repair and thorocoat the brick rear wall of our house. I am wondering if we should add insulation and new siding on top of the brick instead. We would replace windows at the same time. Has anyone done this? Would any good mason or GC know how to do this properly?

gururoofing

in Exteriors 2 years and 3 months ago

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justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Op, wikipedia has a page on this stuff. I found it using the abbreviation eifs. Its worth the read. They go into the problems being mentioned here.

gururoofing | 2 years and 3 months ago

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No, I agree. If that’s what those systems are like it certainly doesn’t sound good.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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You still have to consider what green and eman are saying about this foam. Even with new brick, putting coatings such as paint, caulks and anything else that can let water in from above and lock it in is very bad for a brick wall. And just because this is insulated does not mean that parts won’t freeze and if water is trapped inside the brick and it freezes, it expands and pushes the brick apart. This can happen to the older brick as well as new.

I suppose if this stuff is installed as it should and works as it should, it is ok. But it sounds more like a roof than a brick wall and who wants another roof to maintain? Checking every couple of years and paying someone to maintain it and hope they know what they are doing?

gururoofing | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Our bricks and mortar are definitely harder like modern bricks. The front was repointed before we bought the place and is in good shape.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Op, in so far as the brick and mortar, i live in a 1928 queens house and the bricks and mortar are very different than that old stuff in brooklyn. On the old stuff, the bricks are softer and the mortar remains soft. On my 1920s house, the bricks are more like modern bricks and the mortar is comparable to what might be used on a sidewslk – it gets hard.

I am not sure when the transition occured but circa 1900, maybe a little after. A lot changed in construction between 1900 and 1920.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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EIFS is a bit of a bad joke since it can leak at every caulked joint….most installers will give a disclaimer that you need to do a yearly inspection around all fenestrations (doors, windows, etc)…plus in my humble opinion it looks like crap

gururoofing | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Thanks Cate! Our house is from 1920. I’m not sure if that would make it any different from older brownstones. Has anyone on this board worked with an architect on an old brick facade?

cate | 2 years and 3 months ago

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We redid the front and back facade of our wood frame house and I agree with Maggie you should speak with an architect, specifically one who has done a lot of rear facade work on brick townhouses in Brooklyn, perhaps even ones the same age as yours. (1840s, 1860s and 1890s brick townhouses in Brooklyn have slightly different brick and issues in the rear.) They will definitely know best. They will also work with an engineer although I find some engineers and masons may not always understand the nuances of historic masonry.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Its the manufacturing process. Ozone depleting gases.

GreenThinker | 2 years and 3 months ago

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As far as the styrofoam environmental issue. My understanding is that it’s frowned upon because it’s not something that is recycled. Awful for single use products, ends up straight in the landfill. In the case of house insulation, that styrofoam is going to be on that wall for the life of the building.

To add to the energy point, coolers are made out of styrofoam for a reason. Coating your brick with a layer of thorocoat will just be cosmetic.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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This stuff the green is posting is really good.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Bill, after you posted what you did yesterday, i read all about Styrofoam and it is just as bad as it always has been. I will tell you what i think happen. Styrofoam was the big environmental issue when i was in college in the 80’s. But just about 1990 or 91, environmental groups shifted their focus to climate change on the release a pretty serious article or series of articles released in the major newspapers. Ever since then i have heard nothing about Styrofoam- at least not until you said it.

GreenThinker | 2 years and 3 months ago

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I’ve never personally seen rockwool used. Researching rockwool eifs, It looks like its both adhered and screwed in. I believe you’d have a hard time finding someone that would want to install it vs styrofoam. Eifs does get done on old houses, one that comes to mind is 379 13th St. Old brick building converted into condo’s.

Personally, looking around brooklyn. Nothing really gets done on the exterior of old houses unless its a flip or someone with deep pockets moves in. I’d say the best way to look at doing something is to look at what todays building code would require. If this was new construction, 2 inches of foam would be required on all exterior walls, i see 3 inches being used often though. Windows need to have a certain energy rating. The regular aluminum double hung windows aren’t any more energy efficient than the one’s being replaced. Go for a brand like marvin/andersen/pella. The wood interior on those windows transfers less than the all aluminum ones.

jimcornell55 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Never had a good feeling about styrofoam but maybe it’s safer nowadays. Smart Roofers is good. He has good ideas and so do others. Always talk to a few and you’ll find who has the best approach and who’s going to do it most efficiently. It’s going to depend, at least that was my experience last year.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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a true professional will look at a job and think about what is correct for the customer and tell them to consider this or that even if it means sending them to another contractor or an entirely different industry. i worked in vinyl siding before college (and i do not consider this foam thing to be too far off that industry) and i never heard my boss say to a customer “maybe you should do this….talk to this person”. never happen. true professionals in this city send people to others all the time when they know that will be best for the customer.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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@Familyhouse – Adding insulation is always going to make things more complicated so if the existing coating is generally stable (the masons should be able to tell you that much) throwing on another layer is definitely the path of least resistance. I generally wouldn’t recommend this as something to do when you have a decent brick wall (as cate noted above) but it sounds like that’s not where you are right now. If you are having leaks inside on this side of the building I would still highly recommend engaging an architect to help you review where the water may be coming from so that you don’t spread on new thorocoat over old problems.

Guest User | 2 years and 3 months ago

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@Familyhouse – Adding insulation is always going to make things more complicated so if the existing coating is generally stable (the masons should be able to tell you that much) throwing on another layer is definitely the path of least resistance. I generally wouldn’t recommend this as something to do when you have a decent brick wall (as cate noted above) but it sounds like that’s not where you are right now. If you are having leaks inside on this side of the building I would still highly recommend engaging an architect to help you review where the water may be coming from so that you don’t spread on new thorocoat over old problems.

gururoofing | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Yes, I think you both may be right. All the masons we talked to only suggested thorocoat and specifically said not to bother with stucco, but that’s before insulation was really on my mind. I might just float it by an architect friend who lives in a brownstone. I have a feeling he’ll say just thorocoat and replace windows and call it a day.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 3 months ago

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Given what maggie has said, i am thinking a lot about this and want to add this: i never see this get done on old houses in brooklyn. I see it get done on 1920s queens houses over here where i live and in my long experience the people over here do not always do the right thing with their money and homes. I would definitely consult with third party professionals before talking to installation contractors who are only interested in selling jobs.