Can I work on stripping my front door in Landmarks distric
Do I need to get a permit to be able to strip in place my front door in a landmarks district? Any pointers will be appreciated!
Thank you.
deva
in Exteriors 5 years ago
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stevecym | 5 years ago
the op does not really mention that they want to change anything about this door. i am not sure what “seal it” means as it is a term we use for the first coat of varnish, but it could relate to any finish, i suppose. a seal coat of primer. the op does not say what is there now. perhaps they wish to strip the old varnish.
if i were the op and wanted to do this and were putting it back the way it is, i would do it. if i wanted to maybe change it, i would do it and be prepared to go back to what it was if i got caught.
we’ve done a lot of these without permits when we make no changes and never had an issue and cate says you don’t have to file in such a case. i am with cate and if she is wrong we can all TP her house on holloween.
stevecym | 5 years ago
Deva: you say you are in brooklyn heights. this was where we had the push back from them on refacing a pine door in oak – and a lot of the neighbors had oak doors (or stained pine), we provided photos of theirs in our effort but they said no. paint. and they wanted gray but we convinced them that because the windows were already black from years ago and were not being changed that black would be better and they said ok. but they were against staining because the house was “greek revival” and that would have been a “light gray paint”. it depends on the style of the house or so it seems.
see what cate says about a painted door. i may be repeating myself but this stain and varnish came later; older (and old in brooklyn heights means “pre war” as in pre civil war) doors were painted and the facing and staining did not begin in brooklyn until the brownstone period. perhaps if you had a brownstone house in the heights, not red brick, they would say ok???
i call that office and talk to them when i have an issue. the architect that issues the office app rovals will call you back and let me tell you the good thing about them: they will work with you to some degree and advise even before you submit the application.
I used to be afraid of them, sort of in the way people are afraid of calling the IRS or something, that if you say thing wrong thing it might come back to haunt you. they do not appear that way, the do not behave as though they are trying to catch people out, and we went back and forth over something and managed to get half of what my customer wanted by working with them. i have seen a lot of architects negotiate things on facades when they wanted to add something or do something different, they would say yes but ask for something back.
cate | 5 years ago
Deva, it might be wise to consult with LPC at the staff level for permission and guidance. It’s possible the door you have now is the same one that was there at the time of the 1965 designation. If it is a later 19th century house, they may be OK with stripping and staining. If it is an earlier 19th century house, either way they won’t object to stripping (a repair) but they may require a painted door. There is very little information available publicly about each house in the Brooklyn Heights Historic District, but the LPC apparently in some cases has extensive information on houses in its private files — especially in Brooklyn Heights. They may know if your door was there in 1965. If your house is a row house with other similar houses in the row built by one builder, you may glean some information from looking at their doors. Good luck to you.
deva | 5 years ago
The door looks different and light color in 1940 and in 1980 it looks the same as now and the same door. Ideally, I would love to strip and maybe seal it. It is in Brooklyn Heights.
cate | 5 years ago
OP, does the door in the 1940 tax photo appear to be original? What do others in your row have and what does the designation report say?
RobertGMarvin
in Exteriors 5 years ago
If a door is faced in oak, or another expensive hardwood, is that not prima facia evidence that it was originally intended to have a clear finish, even if it was painted at a later time?
bbrc
in Exteriors 5 years ago
So, with that LPC parlance, what does “existing” mean in this real life scenario?
According to the LPC designation report, my 1910 home was landmarked in 1979. The current doors on my house are not original, and are *clearly* different now (in color, in style, in # of windows, and in actual door material) than they were in either the 1940s tax photo OR the 1980s tax photo, which was likely taken after it was already landmarked the year before. So, the front doors were obviously – and terribly – changed (at least once) in the intervening 40 years after it was landmarked and before I bought the home.
SO, what am I able to panic-fix/DIY-without-a-permit during this disorienting and weird shelter-in-place time while staring at my non-original door?
Jasperrose11 | 5 years ago
In terms of not needing a permit to repaint, “existing color” means what color was the feature painted at the time of designation. If, for example, your door was bright orange at the time of designation you can keep repainting it that color. However, if you want to change that color that’s when permitting and discussions of historically accurate colors come in. If a prior owner painted that orange door blue without a permit at some point you need to deal with this on a LPC staff level. From the new LPC Guidebook : “Repainting a facade or an architectural feature the existing color, provided it was painted the color prior to historic district designation or was approved by the Commission.”
stevecym | 5 years ago
@glarph: i have done so many doors that i cannot even begin to guess who you are. but thank you for acknowledging me here.
fyi: we used tax photos to push a case a number of years back and there are a couple of things they (landmarks) seem to think they know, by the style of the house (the period). they told us the original color was “gray” on a house we were working on when really no one could tell that from the photo. but that was where they were pushing only because that is what they thought (keep in mind, architects are involved in this and all architects think they know more than everyone else anyway). the photo was inconclusive and if anything it was black so we were able to get that approved. so to answer wondernow’s question: they want the original but will settle for wrong color out of compliance if that is what you can prove it was in the not so distant past, 1940.
this is what they would not let us do; go with a natural oak (varnished) door where there had been paint. i can understand this; earlier wood tended to be painted and a very long time ago, paint was seen as “wealth”; it cost money. the varnishing began with the use of finer wood facing in the brownstone period.
i’ve mention that project on here before – it was only a year or so ago and the first time i encountered that sort of nit picking. i was warned that this can be worse in some areas and we encountered that issue in the heights. other requests in other areas, its seems they move them through without looking at them. (i think it was the intake person at landmarks who told me, they are not going to let that go in that neighborhood – and they didn’t).
bbrc
in Exteriors 5 years ago
I suppose not.
glarph | 5 years ago
The tax photos are black and white. I’m not sure how you’d determine what the original color was.
bbrc
in Exteriors 5 years ago
When LPC guidelines say that “Repainting windows or doors
their existing color” does not require a permit, do they mean repainting them the original, historically accurate color as seen in the 1940s tax photo, or do they mean the color they are today, even if that color was not original or was previously re-painted in the wrong color out-of-compliance?
glarph | 5 years ago
I did this quite a few years ago (with Steve’s assistance, thanks Steve!). The doors had been painted black and he stripped and reconditioned them and returned them to their natural color. We did it all with LPC permitting. When they came to check the work, they noted that the garbage bins, all the front windows and all the iron work were out of compliance. It was all work done under the Cinderella Project with HPD and the previous owner. No matter, I received all the citations for close to $100,000 worth of work that I’m still trying to save up for and finish. It was all work I wanted to do but it was a lower priority than some more immediate quality of life items for my tenants. So, you know, take this lesson for what it’s worth.
cate | 5 years ago
If you’re not making changes, it’s an ordinary repair and does not require even a certificate of no affect, according to the LPC website. If you are changing the appearance of the door in any way, you need approval at the staff level before proceeding .
stevecym | 5 years ago
@cate: i think you are supposed to pull the permit either way. if there are no changes, then it is an office staff approval not requiring it be put before the full committee. i am not chastising you for saying what you did, as we have done dozens of pairs of these doors without pulling permits and so long as we recreated the trim and used the same colors, we have never had an issue. that is not to say someone will not make a complaint when the work is in progress- so we have to be careful what we tell the wider audience what they can do.
RobertGMarvin
in Exteriors 5 years ago
While I don’t think anyone is likely to complain to LPC if you strip your doors and refinish them w/o a permit it’s normally pretty easy to obtain one so it wouldn’t be worth taking a chance. That being said, these aren’t normal times. If it were me AND I couldn’t get through to LPC AND this were a. DIY project intended, in part, to keep me from going stir crazy, I’d just go ahead and start. If you’re not intending to do the job on your own, do you really think you could find someone to do the work now, with, or without a permit?
NeoGrec | 5 years ago
What Cate says (there’s a mass of info on the LPC website). Additionally, you can now look up your house in the 1939-1940 city archive of building photos to see how your doors appeared 80 years ago — which is often the same way they appeared when the house was built: http://nycma.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet. Context and continuity are important to LPC so also look to see how your doors compare to neighbors. The designation reports are all online so there may be descriptions there. Generally speaking, my applications/interactions with LPC have gone better when I’ve used their own rather arcane terminology in my letters or emails.
cate | 5 years ago
If you are planning to alter the appearance of the door, such as the color, or whether it is painted or natural wood, you need a permit from the LPC. (This is a quick staff level approval not requiring a hearing.) If you will return the door to its current appearance, no permit is needed. A section on the LPC website about window and door alterations says ” If you have any doubt about whether a permit is needed, call the Commission at 212-669-7817.”
yudashasom | 5 years ago
No