Schnall Limbo

Scott Schnall filed our permits for renovation on our landmarked house. The job was done months ago (walls closed up), but our plumbing permits and overall permits are still “on hold” at the DOB. We tried the folks in Schnall’s office to try to get someone to supersede, but got nowhere. I’ve also contacted a few other architects, but no one has been willing to take over the job. I saw some old threads about this, and am wondering how people proceeded. Should I make an appointment with the Brooklyn DOB? Does anyone know an architect who might take over the job for a reasonable fee (We have of course gone way over budget)? Thanks for any advice!

Guest User | 7 years and 6 months ago

13

Please log in, in order to post replies!

13 replies

Newest Oldest

hkapstein | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5122 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#4857 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "197623"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "hkapstein"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$Bi/rarQU.AidQ5DWnWIzXSi7UikLcx/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(31) "boerumamaemailnotprovided-local"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "hkapstein@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2018-06-15 18:43:24"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(14) "Helen Kapstein"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(197623)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Hi RMH718. If I were in your situation, I would first determine whether my plans were approved under limited review(directive 14 or self cert) or not. If they were, then you are specifically excluded from the court order, so you cannot benefit from this. If not, then then yes, the court order would allow Scott to complete final inspections in addition to sign-off. But there is a time window for Scott’s lawyers to submit the nearly complete jobs, and it may already be too late, so if you want to explore this route I would suggest you contact Brett right away to see if this is a possibility for you. That said, the DOB opposed this order in court, so they may resist attempts to close the job this way. This is merely speculation because I don’t know anyone who has tried it.

Now if you are directive 14, could you hire an architect/engineer(who has special inspection privileges) to supersede, inspect and sign off without filing new plans? I think that under normal circumstances you could. But the original Schnall revocation letter from DOB said that a post approval amendment MUST be filed by the new architect. However it would be worth asking the staff at the commissioner’s office about this when you call them. If they do allow it, please post that info here. However this assumes that your new architect is willing to sign off on the Schnall drawings, and the construction matches the plans well enough to pass without filing an amendment anyway.

Good luck. Let us know if you make any progress!

henry | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5121 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5120 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "197634"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(5) "henry"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BLI5BpmLuY3uZBNK.jrEDJHr/dxeTl."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(29) "henrymetropolitanrealtyny-com"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(30) "henry@metropolitanrealtyny.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:35:08"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(13) "Henry Alvarez"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(197634)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

@Urbandad – What if job is done like you said but Scott didn’t manage to sign off the special inspections (in addition to the final sign-off) before he lost his privileges. Can a home owner still benefit from the court order and have special inspections sign offs and final sign offs?

Lurker | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5123 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5137 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "113126"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(6) "Lurker"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$Biam83uc193o8.v5qK1VChb9yjJ5vu."
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(6) "lurker"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(22) "jcjedi_10003@yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(21) "/forums/users/lurker/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2011-01-19 18:44:20"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(6) "Lurker"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(113126)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Kudos Urbandad–this she be pinned on the front page of Bstoner.

hkapstein | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5120 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5122 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "197623"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "hkapstein"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$Bi/rarQU.AidQ5DWnWIzXSi7UikLcx/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(31) "boerumamaemailnotprovided-local"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "hkapstein@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2018-06-15 18:43:24"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(14) "Helen Kapstein"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(197623)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Sorry to hear you’re having trouble. I’m more than happy to post this info since it was such a headache to figure out. Here are some details that might help you.

1. Check the virtual folder on BIS. Have your new TR-1 and TR-8 scanned up? If no, call your architect.

2. If they have scanned up, call the borough commissioner’s office(you can google this number easily) and ask if you are on the audit review list for Schnall jobs. If no, ask to be added, wait time was about 3 weeks when I did it. If yes, ask if the auditor has reviewed your docs. Were they rejected, or are you still waiting for review? If waiting, when will they review? It’s easy to fall through the cracks here so I’d call periodically to check up, but don’t drive them crazy.

3. If your audit was rejected, ask why. It could be that Scott checked a box your new architect didn’t, and the old and new forms need to match. It could also be that your new architect forgot to sign or initial part of a form, or a stamp is missing etc. You can try asking to speak to the auditor if it’s not clear why you were rejecte d.

4. When you find out your audit has been accepted, they will email another department to change the audit status in bis from “Audit: Notice to revoke” to “Audit: Accepted”. This takes a couple days, and it can get stuck at this step, so I’d call the commissioner’s office to follow up if it hasn’t updated in 2-3 days.

5. Once BIS page for your job shows “audit accepted”, you can go to the borough commissioners office and collect the AI-1 from the basket. Hand it to one of the staff members and ask them to lift the hold. They will have it reviewed by a commissioner which could take 1-2 weeks, and then your hold will be lifted in BIS. If you can’t locate your AI-1 in the basket, call your architect and have them prepare a new AI-1 requesting the hold be lifted. At this step the commissioner could reject the AI-1, and you would not be notified, so after 2 weeks I would go back to the office and check the basket to see if your AI-1 was returned with comments explaining the rejection. This is unlikely though since the staff will check your paperwork when you hand them the AI-1.

You should be able to get this done with a little perseverance. If you’ve been having trouble, you might try calling the commissioner’s office yourself(as opposed to your expeditor) to find out where the process is stuck. Have your job number from BIS handy, and verify that your TR-1 and TR-8 are scanned up(in the virtual folder on BIS) before calling. The DOB actually wants you to have a new architect/pe on the job so they are not motivated to make this task impossible. Hope that helps you break through. Keep us posted.

Guest User | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "197617"

Thanks so much, Urban Dad. This is very helpful. We were trying to work on path A, but not getting anywhere.

hkapstein | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5125 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5131 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "197623"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "hkapstein"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$Bi/rarQU.AidQ5DWnWIzXSi7UikLcx/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(31) "boerumamaemailnotprovided-local"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(19) "hkapstein@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2018-06-15 18:43:24"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(14) "Helen Kapstein"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(197623)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Here’s the procedure for removing a Schnall hold. This is not professional advice, just my experience as customer of Scott’s, and your mileage may vary. If you’re looking for an engineer, Ken Philogene did a great job for us with the new filings. See his contact information at the end of my post.

First determine if your job is directive 14 or self certified. This information will be visible under your job number on the ny bis website, there is a checkbox for directive 14, and self cert appears in stars at the top of the job(Scott did almost no self cert jobs, but he seems to have used directive 14 whenever possible). If it is neither self cert nor directive 14 and the construction is done except for sign off, contact Scott’s attorney Brett Theis at Rosenberg & Estis and ask to be put on the court’s “list of almost complete jobs”(you can google Brett’s phone number). A court order has been signed that such jobs may be inspected by DOB as they normally would be and signed off by Scott.

If the job is directive 14(probably most Alt2 jobs) or self cert(almost no cases), the re are two possible pathways, both involved hiring a new architect or engineer. In any event, I would be eager to close or supersede the Schnall job before January when the court is schedule to hear a motion to dismiss Schnall’s Article 78 proceeding. If the case is dismissed, it stands to reason the restraining order against the city will be withdrawn and the city will reimpose the stop work order and violations against property until you resolve the situation.

Path A)
1. Retain an new architect or engineer.
2. File an AI-1 with the borough commissioners office, and file TR-1, and a TR-8 at the window. All these must be stamped by your architect or engineer and state that s/he is superseding Scott, and include all inspection items Scott had checked..
3. After the TR-1 and TR-8 scan up on the BIS website(about 3 days), return to the commissioners office and locate the AI-1 in the basket. Take this two one of the commissioner’s office staff members and request that a commissioner review the filings and lift the hold.
4. After the commissioner lifts the hold(1-2 weeks), your new architect can file a new set of plans. The demo plan must look like Scott’s, but the new plan can be different. The amended plan should match the actual construction and be code compliant. A plan exam will need to be scheduled and passed unless the architect wants to self cert the plans(doubtful given the history of the job).
5. Now you can close the job like any other job under the privileges of your new architect/PE.

Each step, there could be errors with the forms filed, and you will not be notified, so you need to check regularly with the commissioners office to discover any error, then have your architect produce and stamp new TR-1s or TR-8s, refile at the window, and wait again for a bis scan. Estimated completion time 4-6+ weeks with optimal execution and good luck.

Path B)
1. Retain a new architect or engineer.
2. File a completely new set of plans independent of Scott’s job and get them approved. Such plans will need to start with the conditions that existed before any construction commenced under the Schnall job.
3. Have your contractors pull permits for the new job.
4. File a PW1 to withdraw Scott’s job. Be prepared to demonstrate the new job covers the entire scope of work of the Schnall job, and assume that a site inspection will be triggered to confirm the conditions.
5. Sign off the new job under the privileges of your new architect/PE.

This is basically like starting over. Once concern is that if you already started construction, there is no guarantee that a new plan examiner will approve everything that was approved by the first examiner, and if changes are needed, that might require you to perform additional construction. Completion time in theory would be the same as filing a normal job, but with the added complications of making sure the schnall job can be withdrawn. I would estimate this at 6+ weeks under best possible conditions.

I highly recommend Ken Philogene who handled my paperwork, and he gave a very good price and knew how to handle all the code issues Scott had previously dealt with. Many architects I spoke with didn’t know the rules as well and wanted to make unnecessary changes(that could be expensive or inconvenient).

Here is his contact info:
Kenneth Philogene, PE
http://kmpdesignandengineering.com/
(718) 221-4277

Good luck to you,

Urban Dad

yudashasom | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5124 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5130 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "194528"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(10) "yudashasom"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BKrcOOJj2qysH3kdOE3mMqxeyqPZ1m0"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(10) "yudashasom"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(20) "yudashasom@gmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:07:32"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(29) "Dasha Sominski Dasha Sominski"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(194528)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(3) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Talk to Jon Ott or Tommy that previously worked with Scott. They are handling all his filings.

Guest User | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "197617"

my user name at yahoo. Thanks!

Northie | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5136 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5135 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "20279"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(7) "Northie"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B92y4ZMKn.3agOpgcXjKdaqPJ0k6ds1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(7) "Northie"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "mariakura@hotmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2008-11-13 03:10:43"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(7) "Northie"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(20279)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

My architect can take a look at it. What is your email?

Guest User | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "3"
string(6) "197617"

I’d love any recommendations for an architect who will refile for us.

Northie | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#4872 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5122 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(5) "20279"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(7) "Northie"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$B92y4ZMKn.3agOpgcXjKdaqPJ0k6ds1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(7) "Northie"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "mariakura@hotmail.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2008-11-13 03:10:43"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(7) "Northie"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(20279)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

We got caught up in that mess too. We received a stop work order, had to redo and refile EVERYTHING. We moved to a new architect and expeditor as quickly as we could. It’s my understanding is that he is no longer in business so I’m not sure showing up at his old location would do any good.

If you find out about a class action suit, please let me know because I need to be part of it.

slopefarm | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5120 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5118 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(3) "655"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "slopefarm"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BK7dzbqXJe9TV6iU0glcNZiXdOt9CR1"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(9) "slopefarm"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(18) "jrubin@law.nyc.gov"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(24) "/forums/users/slopefarm/"
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:11:42"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(9) "slopefarm"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(655)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(2) {
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(2) {
    [0]=>
    string(10) "subscriber"
    [1]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(4) {
    ["read"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["level_0"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["subscriber"]=>
    bool(true)
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Did you show up at his office or just call? If all you did was call, I would try showing up at 7am, fully caffeinated, engage with them then and see what they tell you. You should get a good sense of whether you can fish or need to cut bait.

resident2 | 7 years and 6 months ago

string(1) "1"
object(WP_User)#5122 (8) {
  ["data"]=>
  object(stdClass)#5127 (12) {
    ["ID"]=>
    string(6) "181002"
    ["user_login"]=>
    string(9) "resident2"
    ["user_pass"]=>
    string(34) "$P$BYKCrEpDU34.3RJghRPk8/Xp1XpCve/"
    ["user_nicename"]=>
    string(9) "resident2"
    ["user_email"]=>
    string(21) "Jamanda1255@Yahoo.com"
    ["user_url"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_registered"]=>
    string(19) "2017-08-10 14:07:33"
    ["user_activation_key"]=>
    string(0) ""
    ["user_status"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["display_name"]=>
    string(9) "resident2"
    ["spam"]=>
    string(1) "0"
    ["deleted"]=>
    string(1) "0"
  }
  ["ID"]=>
  int(181002)
  ["caps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["cap_key"]=>
  string(15) "wp_capabilities"
  ["roles"]=>
  array(1) {
    [0]=>
    string(15) "bbp_participant"
  }
  ["allcaps"]=>
  array(1) {
    ["bbp_participant"]=>
    bool(true)
  }
  ["filter"]=>
  NULL
  ["site_id":"WP_User":private]=>
  int(1)
}

Start by calling the plumber that has your open permits, what are they saying is needed to close out the plumbing? Then make an appointment to see the Brooklyn Borough Commissioner at the Brooklyn DOB to get your construction inspections done etc.
Be prepared for a lot of objections if you get to an inspection date, because they will be crossing “T’s” & dotting “I’s” on all Schnall jobs.
Then if that does not go anywhere call a construction attorney… I am surprised that there is not a class action going on somewhere already with all of the screwed up Schnall jobs.