Consider buying a house with no certificate of occupancy?

Cate, i looked at the title and mortgage docs on file. I mean the summaries. I think a mortgage bank put 2 fam but something does not smell right here.

Op has to walk into dob office in queens and pull the file and ask.

I am not sure if you can just walk in anymore.

justinromeu26

in Dept. of Buildings (DOB) 2 years and 2 months ago

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mreisbaum | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Hi everyone,

I’m currently considering purchasing a house in Queens that was built in 1901 and is being advertised as a 2-family home. However, I’ve noticed that the property doesn’t have a certificate of occupancy, which has raised some concerns for me.

From my research, I’ve learned that some houses built before 1935 may not require a certificate of occupancy. However, this house has undergone significant renovations and it appears to have originally been a single-family home.

I’m wondering if anyone knows whether this house requires the issuance of a retroactive certificate of occupancy. I understand that an inspector or lawyer should catch any issues during the purchase process, but I want to make sure that I’m not missing any major red flags before moving forward.

Any insights or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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i am not sure my home has a cert of occupancy either. and i do not think renos automatically trigger a cert of occupancy. maybe only if there is a change in occupancy (i went through this in a commercial building once).

i think someone wrote about this not too long ago and said in this case, what will matter is if they dept of finance recognizes and assesses that house as a two family. You can check the city’s ACRIS system. or maybe check the DOB BIS (building info system) to see if they list it as a 2 family even if it does not have a cert.

listen, if you want some help with this house, give me a call. i have worked in buildings and building management and as a contractor all of my life and am a home inspector. i also just got my state wood destroying insect license ( i can sign termite inspection forms for lenders requiring a licensed person).

If you call me for an inspection, i will turn this place over if you want. I will find things others will miss (i always do). you can call me for a standard pre sale home inspection (2-3 hours on site) or, if you are certain you are buying the house and want me to spend 5-6 hours going over maintenance issues, i can do that as well (this is longer than a typical inspection and costs a tad more). Bring me in on this and i will get you the answers-

I just had two reviews posted on here recently. Please look at my website.

Steve
wwwbrownstonehomeinspection.com

mreisbaum | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Tax code is 2 family but dept in finance has a disclaimer that tax code does not mean it a “legal 2 family” and one should consult the certificate of occupancy

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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but you don’t have one. what does the bis say? email me the address at my website. brownstonehomeinspection.com or text me 347 813-9635

cate | 2 years and 2 months ago

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You do not need a C of O for a house built before 1935. That said, if the city has it as a two-family now, you must continue to use it as a two-family (or a one-family) unless you legally convert it to something else. Conversion will mean paying extremely high taxes. Let sleeping dogs lie.

cate | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Also many houses built along the Queens/Brooklyn border circa 1895-1910 were built as original two-families, some with a rental over a duplex and others with two floor-through apartments. One giveaway is identical tiny bathrooms one on top of the other on the top two floors (usually behind the stair landing with a window on an air shaft rather than in the rear of the house). A single-family would NEVER have an original bathroom on the parlor floor — that would be disgusting. Another giveaway would be identical mantels (or console mirrors if there were no mantels, or identical rear dining rooms) on the top two floors.

mreisbaum | 2 years and 2 months ago

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@cate the house was originally a single family based on my research on BIS and as we where told. It went through alterations and now is advertised as a 2 family. here are permits for alteration and another to install 2 meters.
On BIS is says:
“Department of Finance Building Classification: B3-2 FAMILY DWELLING Please Note: The Department of Finance’s building classification information shows a building’s tax status, which may not be the same as the legal use of the structure. To determine the legal use of a structure, research the records of the Department of Buildings.”
with emphasis on “not be the same as the legal use of the structure”.
There is no CoO and it’s not registered with HPD which AFAIK could be to avoid inspection.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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i would let things lie myself if i found my way into a two family. what i sense the op’s fear is, that the house is being billed as a two family and two families cost a little more than single families. OP wants to be sure they pay for a two family and get a two family.

i am sure in the past before we had all of this on line stuff to look things up, there were people who bought single families with illegal apartments in them thinking they were legal two’s.

cate is correct about the houses she is mentioning. these are in areas like ridgewood and cypress hills and woodhaven and maybe the edge of bushwick (and perhaps in other areas like Asotria) and i have worked in a lot of them and i often see a family using them as either one family (with two kitchens, etc) or the parents in one apartment and the adult children in another. Some of these people have owned these houses for generations and i always inquire about the history when i encounter these. Always makes for an interesting story. You will know these houses because they are very identical. most of ridgewood was built this way. if you do what i said with the BIS and look up some of the neighboring houses, they will all be two family and i bet most do not have cert of occupancy.

Over here were i live, 1928 queens most of the houses are single family and the bis reflects that. but we have a smattering of legal two families (converted single family) tucked in here and there and for the most part we know which houses they are because tenants come and go. Last night i looked at the BIS and those say two family. BUT one of them that was a legal two a decade ago went through a reno and they changed it back to a legal one. to what cate is saying, i am not sure why they made that conversion back. to me that took the value of the house down and i am sure it will be a hassle to turn it into a two family again.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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forget what i said above. we were typing at the same time.

This is what i would do. and i have never done this with a sale or purchase myself so you must talk to a real estate attorney and architect or expeditor or wait for someone else on here to tell you exactly how to do it. I would tell them they have to get a C of O (or at least have to get the ball rolling). that does not mean i would delay the contract or purchase, but i would move forward with contingencies put in the contract with specified penalties set in place in the event that what they are saying is not true or you cannot get the 2 family C of O. I would also make them put monies in escrow from the sale in case this all falls a part. If they balk at this idea, i would start asking “why?”.

My neighbor bought a house and was told all sorts of things by the seller about the legality of some improvements. they swore they were legal. he told them put that in the sale contract and they did and the improvements turned out to not be legal. The DOB came down on him. he had to get an architect t o draw and file a bunch of stuff and he sued the old owner and got the money from them. Peop le that are sincere about this stuff will put things in writing and will put money in escrow for things like this. i know someone else that did it on Long Island.

in so far as changing or getting a C of O. i was hired by a building in 1998 and part of my job was to close out a boat load of violations and open permits so the building could change the C of O. why they were doing that did not matter. what mattered was there was all of this unsigned off work around and it took years to complete this even though the work had been done and i had a really good expeditor guiding me and telling me what we needed to do. i left that job in 2001 and still not having completed the task, was retained by the firm to keep interfacing with the expeditor. It took another year or so. I will plug the expeditor’s name here: Gary Johnson of Johnson Design Corp. I think he was/is great. Maybe someone like him can answer questions to help you decide how to proceed.

if this is a “flip” or people have deliberately made an effort to hide things or violate laws, you can run into problems getting the C of O.

also, do not rely solely on BIS. The DOB has a new system called DOB Now. the DOB Now may have a more accurate reflection of permits and open jobs.

Be careful. NY is “buyer beware” state. Caveat emptor!

steve
brownstonehomeinspection.com

cate | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Your lawyer and a title search should flag if there is a problem with the use of the house exceeding the occupancy. Usually this is handled after you are in contract, but you can have this research done ahead of time. If the house was converted from a single to a two before the 80s, I’m not sure it matters. Probably doesn’t matter if the conversion happened in the early 20th century. You can check DOB, DOF, HPD (i-card), and floor plans in prior listings if they exist. If the house was a single-family until recent renovations, and the renovations changed the units from one to two, but the seller didn’t file an Alt-1 and didn’t get a new C of O, that could be a problem. If you want to the seller to make it legal, your taxes will go up dramatically. You are better off finding an already legal two-family in that case.

cate | 2 years and 2 months ago

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What alterations did they do?

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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I would not count on the title search uncovering anything recent. As far as the lawyer goes, make sure they are aware of your concerns or they will not know what to look for. If this was me, i would consult a lawyer sooner and put these question to them. At least if this does not get resolved, they will tell you what to do to protect yourself with contingencies.

mreisbaum | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Based on previous sales and listing, it appears it was a single family and converted to a 2 fam house. They have 2 meters and a permit to install 2 meter. I am not sure if all these permits make it “legal 2 family”. I will have a lawyer but to be honest, I know of friends whose lawyers missed these things so I just want to make sure I do my dd.
here is a linkt to the dob https://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/PropertyProfileOverviewServlet?boro=4&houseno=12-14&street=30+dr&go2=+GO+&requestid=0

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Ok. I have admitted i am guessing anyway because i don’t own a 2 fam. I know of people who have gotten screwed in these situations. You have to find a lawyer who deals with multi family. I would get the name of one and ask for a face to face. Pay them. They might be able to tell you what to look at if they don’t know.

I have not looked at that link but be careful about sharing tmi on net. If you had emailed me and i was working in a customer’s house i could ask, i would do so. But i am not in that set up this week.
I don’t mind researching some of this to learn and will read tonight. But remember, free advice is worth what you pay for it. The best you can hope for from a layperson is that they find something that says its not 2 family but for you to buy it on someone on here’s word that it is or is not would be wrong. You need someone who has been through this.

I am not sure if the 2nd meter means anything. Who approves that permit? I asked myself “what would happen if i applied for a second meter for my business that is in my house?”

I cannot call that expeditor i mentioned because i have not spoken to him in years.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Have you gone to the queens dob and asked to see the file on that house? Years ago we could do that. Not sure anymore.

mreisbaum | 2 years and 2 months ago

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@homeinspector..all the records are online now. Perhaps not old icards. But new records should be and this one has no record of it being a formally “legal 2 fam”

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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You need a lawyer. A good one or someone who could tell you how to spot the application for the change. That is why i said to tell them to apply for a c of o. Everything will have to be on the up and up.

I will read tonight and see if i can point you.

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I found an article that was written in 2015 that states if there is no cert of occupancy for a building and it was built before 1938, you (or the owner) can apply for a letter of no objection from the city.

Someone on this forum said that con ed will provide a second meter for a legal two. That post was from 2011.

I will keep reading. I saved the first article.

justinromeu26 | 2 years and 2 months ago

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Saved another article. Someone else, a broker, said that this happens all the time. That you can go to the dob and check the file and talk to them about a letter of no objection.

Someone else said if they look the title up on an older building during the search it will show it as a one family and this may not be accurate if the change was done recently.

And the broker said what said yesterday. Talk to an expeditor.

I would do some of this leg work and go to the dob before talking to an atty. You may find your answer or you will be able to tell the atty what was in the folder.

If you email me i will send you links to what i found.

Also, if you are buying it as a 2 and its not, the bank will not issue a mortgage. Which might mean seller will have to get letter of no ob.